Interview Transcript - Maxwell 2025.07.24 (Redacted) (2).pdf

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United States Department of Justice
INTERVIEW OF: GHISLAINE MAXWELL
DATE: July 24, 2025
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:
Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General
Diego Pestana, Acting Associate Deputy
Attorney General
Spencer Horn, FBI Special Agent
Mark Beard, Deputy U.S. Marshal
For Ghislaine Maxwell:
David Markus
Leah Saffian
Melissa Madrigal
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                  I N T E R V I E W
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                         ***
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           TODD BLANCHE:  I am going to ask everybody
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to put their name on the record here.
5
           SPENCER HORN:  Good morning.  My name is
6
Assistant Special Agent in Charge, Spencer Horn of
7
FBI, New York.
8
           Today we're doing a proffer of
9
Ms. Maxwell.  The date is July 24th and the time is
10
10:12 a.m.  This interview is being recorded.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  And my name is Todd
12
Blanche.  I'm the Deputy Attorney General.  And
13
before we start formally asking questions of
14
Ms. Maxwell, I'm going to put on the record everybody
15
that's in this room, in addition to me, starting with
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you, Diego.
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           DIEGO PESTANA:  Diego Pestana, Associate
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Deputy Attorney General.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  And then you heard from
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Special Agent in Charge Horn.  Mark Beard from the
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United States Marshal Service is here as well.
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           And then David.
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           DAVID MARKUS:  Yes.  This is David Oscar
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Markus, and I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
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           LEAH SAFFIAN:  My name is Leah Saffian and
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I'm counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell.
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           MELISSA MADRIGAL:  My name is
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Melissa Madrigal and I'm counsel for Ghislaine
4
Maxwell.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Go ahead.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And I'm -- I'm
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Ghislaine Maxwell.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Good morning, Ms. Maxwell.
9
How are you?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Good morning,
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Mr. Blanche.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Good.  Okay.  So before we
13
started recording, we met for a few minutes.  I
14
introduced myself and we -- we've chatted and now
15
I've told you that we were going on the record.  And
16
before we start asking questions, I know that you've
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been given, by your lawyer, a copy of what's called a
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proffer agreement.
19
           And I just want to spend two minutes
20
making sure that you understand what -- what governs
21
our conversation today.  The most important part of
22
this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation
23
agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today,
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we're really just meeting, I'm not promising to do
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anything.
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           I'm not promising to ask Judge Nathan or
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any of the judges that's been assigned to your case
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to do anything.  It -- we're just talking.  And so
4
that's the most important -- important part of -- of
5
this agreement.
6
           However, almost as important is the fact
7
that what this agreement does for you is it gives you
8
protection.  So what it means is that the government
9
cannot use what you say today against you, with some
10
exceptions, which we'll talk about in a minute.
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           But whatever you talk about today, you
12
have what's called immunity.  So that means that the
13
words that you say today, we cannot use against you
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in a case in chief, if we were ever to bring one.
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Okay?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Thank you.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  All right.  There's
18
exceptions to that.  The most meaningful one of which
19
is that, if you say something today that's not true,
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that's a lie, we can bring a prosecution against you
21
for what's called false statements.
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           So I'm a federal officer, I have several
23
officers here.  The FBI is here.  And if -- if you
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lie to someone that's -- like me or like Special
25
Agent Horn, it's a crime.  So you have to be
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truthful.
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           The other exception to this, that doesn't
3
necessarily apply directly to you, but if there ever
4
was a retrial in your case, or if there ever was a --
5
a criminal case -- a future criminal case against
6
you, and your lawyer or you said something different
7
or took a position that's different than what you say
8
today, we can then cross examine you or a witness,
9
based upon what you say today.
10
           So it's a little bit nuanced, meaning I
11
can't use what you say against you in our case in
12
chief.  However, if you were to testify or if your
13
lawyer called a witness to testify, and they said
14
something that is totally different than what you say
15
today, we could then cross examine you or the witness
16
and say, hey, do you remember when we met with
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Ms. Wax -- when we met with Ms. Maxwell back in July
18
of 2025?  She told us and then say what she said.
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Okay?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I understand.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Other than that,
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you -- I -- I know you didn't have a lot of time this
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morning to meet with -- with -- with Mr. Markus, but
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did -- did you have a chance to go over this briefly
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with him?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I did.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  All right.  So I've
3
already signed it, as has Special Agent Horn --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  -- and Mr. Markus signed it
6
as well.  So you got a pen, please sign it --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Right here?
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           TODD BLANCHE:  -- right where it says
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"client." Yes.
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           And I will provide a copy of this to -- to
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your lawyer so you guys have it.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Thank you.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay, thank you.
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           So Ms. Maxwell, about a week and a half
15
ago or two weeks ago --
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           SPENCER HORN:  Can you see the light
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blinking on there?  On the Sony?  Yeah, there it is.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay. We're just confirming
19
that it works and it does.
20
           Ms. Maxwell, I guess about a week and a
21
half or two weeks ago, Mr. Markus reached out to me
22
and said that -- that you wanted to speak with
23
somebody from the government about, not only your
24
case, but about everything that's been in the media
25
and that's been publicized about Mr. Epstein in your
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case.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's --
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Did he --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's true and I did
5
speak to him and I did ask him if -- oh, and did tell
6
him that I would be very keen to talk to anyone,
7
because no one from the government, at any time, ever
8
in the -- since the inception of the case, so dating
9
back to the early 2000s, has ever spoken to me, and
10
indeed, I believe ever reached out to me at any time
11
to even speak to me. And that includes up to when I
12
was indicted and prosecuted.
13
           I believe that -- or I understand, I
14
should say, rather, that my attorneys, at the time,
15
did tell the government that I wanted to speak to
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them, because I was very keen to meet with anyone, so
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that I could tell or have them ask me any question.
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           I've never had any problem to -- to speak
19
to anybody.  And I offered myself and I kept asking,
20
if they would meet with me, so I could talk to them
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and for whatever reason --
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- that was not
24
happening.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  I have questions
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that I want to ask you, but I'm not -- if there's a
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path that -- a question that I'm not asking, that you
3
think should be asked, I -- I invite you to
4
volunteer.  Same thing goes to your lawyers.
5
           Just to start a little bit very briefly,
6
can you talk about when you first met Mr. Epstein.  I
7
know that goes back a while.  And just very generally
8
talk about your relationship with Mr. Epstein, from
9
the time you met him all the way up until -- until
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his death.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I met Mr. Epstein in
12
1991.  My -- I had -- I had never heard of him or met
13
him before.  And no one in my family had ever either.
14
My father never knew him.  And I'll explain why that
15
is the case. I met --
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Where did you -- where --
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where did you meet him?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I had a girlfriend
19
who -- I -- I was -- yeah.  I had moved to America,
20
briefly, in -- well, I'd moved to America in 1990.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- well "moved,"
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that's a big word.  I'd come to visit America in
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1990.  I had been running my own company up until
25
that time, which was a company called Maxwell's
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Corporate Gifts.
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           And I had also been working for my father
3
at the time.  I had multiple jobs with him.  I was --
4
in 1990 I was working with a -- a new company of his,
5
a new -- a new newspaper that he was launching,
6
called The European.
7
           And I was in charge of launching a
8
magazine to go with the -- The European.  And I was
9
traveling at that time from England to America,
10
because my father was looking to -- well, he'd also
11
bought McMillan the -- the publishing house.  And he
12
had purchased the New York Daily News.
13
           And it's truth that my father always
14
wanted me to come back, full time and work for him,
15
but that's a much longer story I don't think we need
16
to go into at this time.
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           So -- but I was always working with him.
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There was no escaping it were -- as it were to -- to
19
work for him.
20
           So in 1990, I had come over to New York,
21
to help look at some of that.  He was having some
22
advertising issues with the New York Daily News.  And
23
in fact, I met -- I may have met Donald Trump at that
24
time, because my father was friendly with him and
25
liked him very much.  And I think, should be said
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that he also very much liked Ivana, because she was
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also from Czechoslovakia where my dad was from.
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           So I don't -- I don't remember if I did
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meet him or not in 1990 with my dad, but I knew that
5
that's how I knew about, -- about Mr. Trump.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  And this was before you
7
met --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  This was before I met
9
Mr. Epstein.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- Mr. Epstein?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay. All right.
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I was already going
14
backwards and forwards in America.  And then in April
15
of 1991, I came to New York, but, I can't remember
16
for what reason -- what business reason, but there
17
was a business reason -- something to do with my dad
18
at that time.
19
           And a girlfriend of mine who -- an
20
American, told me I -- I -- I had broken up with my
21
long -- I'd been engaged, getting my -- the very
22
long-term boyfriend and we'd broken up.
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           And she said, I've got -- you know, as
24
your girlfriends do, I've got a guy for you to meet.
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And I was like, who is it?  And she goes, it's --
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he's been dating my sister.  You'll love him.  He's
2
looking for a wife.  I'm edging towards 30.  I don't
3
need to tell you guys, That's a very important moment
4
for a girl to, like, think about important things.
5
And sure, I'd be happy to meet him.
6
           And so sometime in 1991 now.  We are in
7
1991, I met him at his offices in -- on Madison
8
Garden.  And I think the most memorable thing I can
9
think about that is he was wearing a tie, which he
10
didn't often do.  It had a giant, seemed like a
11
ketchup stain on it.  So I was like, wow, okay. And
12
that was how we met.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Was your meeting at his
14
office for you to meet him just personally or were
15
you -- were you there for --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I was just --
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           TODD BLANCHE:  -- work related reasons?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  I -- I knew
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nothing about him.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- he just invited
22
me to come and have tea, and I was like tea, that's
23
English.  Okay.  But what was unusual, was in his
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offices.  So I went to his offices and we met.  And I
25
found him very engaging and that was that.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  So -- okay.  So that's how
2
you meet him.  So we -- and again, I don't want to
3
spend a lot of time, you know, on -- on this
4
particular issue, but what happened with your
5
relationship over the years, from the time you meet
6
him in 1991, up until the time he -- he passed away?
7
           DAVID MARKUS:  Just give the highlights.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay, the highlights.
9
So I -- I was looking for real estate for my dad to
10
buy some, and Epstein told me that he was also
11
looking to move from his apartment and would I help
12
him?  And I -- I said, sure I'm looking already so I
13
could look for him.  So that's how it started.
14
           And then, in 1991, my father passed away
15
and I returned to New York after that, originally to
16
come back and help with the family businesses, which
17
was McMillan.
18
           And then the debacle of my father's
19
passing hit the family. And -- and we lost all our
20
businesses and my family thought that it would be
21
best if I stayed in America, because of the intensity
22
of the press and the drama surrounding my father's
23
death in England
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           So I stayed and Epstein said, well, you
25
can keep helping me. You can help me find a house and
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we can decorate the house.  And it gave me something
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to do.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Were you in a romantic
4
relationship with him at this point or just friends?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No, just friends.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  And while we're just --
7
with respect to your father, there have been multiple
8
questions about whether he worked for any
9
intelligence agency.
10
           Do you have any knowledge about that?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think -- well
12
certainly my father had a background in intelligence
13
during -- because he was -- I believe he did in the
14
second World War.  He was an intelli- -- a British
15
intelligence officer.  I think that, my sort of
16
belief is that once you've been an intelligence
17
officer, you're kind of -- always; it doesn't mean
18
that you're formally employed.
19
           So I don't think my dad in any formal
20
sense was, you know, employed by the -- any agency.
21
But when you are a very significant businessman and
22
politician, as my father was, you meet with people
23
over time and you, I guess trade business or ideas.
24
           I think if -- if that would fall under
25
that definition, that's how I would give it.
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           Now he certainly, I have no formal
2
knowledge of anything specifically that he did in
3
that thing, but if you're asking me if I thought that
4
he did help people, the answer would be yes, I did.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did your father and Mr.
6
Epstein have a business relationship over the years?
7
I know we're maybe jumping around a little bit.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  They never met.  So --
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  As far as you know, they
10
never even met?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No. I -- I--
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- or you know they never
13
met?
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I know they never met.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Well, how do you know they
16
never met?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  They -- just
18
categorically know they never met.  Well, because
19
after, in 1991, before my father died, he asked me if
20
I'd met anybody interesting or whatever, you know,
21
because I was still trying not to be sucked back into
22
the family business.
23
           And I told him that I had met Mr. Epstein.
24
And the reason why I shared that I'd met Mr. Epstein,
25
because I believed, at that time, that Epstein worked
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for Bear Stearns.  And Bear Stearns was one of our
2
banks.  And I knew that my father was friendly with
3
both Jimmy Cayne and with Ace Greenberg.
4
           So my dad came -- was actually in
5
New York, I think.  If I remem- -- I may -- I don't
6
think I had this conversation on the phone, but I --
7
I honestly we're talking 30 years ago, so I'm not
8
sure.
9
           But if I -- I maybe I told him this
10
verbatim, because it happened -- I know that what my
11
dad did, whether I saw it or whether I -- he did it
12
and told me later I -- that I don't remember.
13
           But he called both Jimmy Cayne and Ace
14
Greenberg to ask if -- what sort of guy he was and
15
was he even allowed to -- because (indiscernible)
16
so . . .
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  So they never -- they never
18
met.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He didn't even know
20
who he was.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  But they had -- they --
22
they knew some of the same people, it sounds like, or
23
certainly the Bear Stearns connection was something
24
that -- that you -- that you knew that they had.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  Well, he never
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had a connection with Epstein.  He had a connection
2
with the bank.  I mean, Epstein, I'd never heard of
3
him or knew of him before.  And I certainly -- if my
4
dad had known him, right, when I said, this is who he
5
was, he didn't know who he was.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So he rang Ace and he
8
rang Jimmy, to ask if it was okay that I even knew
9
him.  And I just want to explain, briefly why my
10
father would even do such a thing.
11
           I've had some -- some interesting things
12
that have happened in my life.  And one of them was
13
to be found on an IRA kidnap and murder list.  And so
14
after that happened -- well, there were other
15
related -- I'm not going to bore you with all the
16
horrible things in that vein, but I -- if you want
17
the details, of course I can.
18
           But after that happened, my father wanted
19
to put a lot of protection on me, obviously.  And I
20
declined on the grounds that that would be a very
21
life-restricting event.  You are all in law
22
enforcement, I know you understand this.
23
           And so he had told me that, you know, I
24
would be taking my life in my own hands and then
25
whatever.  And so I think after that event and
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several others, where I had stalkers and all that
2
thing that one has, he was always quite protective of
3
me.  And so if I met somebody, he would try and
4
verify that they weren't going to do anything
5
hideous.
6
           And so in case he thought it was weird,
7
that he would call Jimmy and -- and Ace -- it
8
might -- you know, you may think it is but in my --
9
from my perspective, he was just -- because he was
10
concerned, I was in America alone and he had an
11
opportunity to verify who this person was.
12
           And so I don't know if I was in the room
13
with him, I don't recall.  But I know that at some
14
point my father told me he's fine.  You can see him.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He's safe.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, okay.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  So we might come back and
20
touch a little bit more on that at some point, but --
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- I went down a rabbit
23
hole for a minute.
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's all right.  I
25
just wanted to --
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           TODD BLANCHE:  No, that's helpful.
2
Thank you.
3
           So -- okay.  So you're -- you're now in
4
the '90s and you're friends with Mr. Epstein.  Your
5
house -- decorating the house or the apartment.
6
           What -- what happens with your
7
relationship?  Again, I know we're talking about a
8
35-year time period or whatever, but to the extent
9
you can kind of, at a very high level, talk about it.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Listen, I think just
11
full disclosure is the best way to go at this point.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So in 1992, I slept
14
with him one time and I was like, whoa, that's it.
15
We're going to be dating, because that's how I
16
thought.  And -- and I kind of thought of myself in
17
that moment.  Like, because you, I felt if you slept
18
with someone, that you were then dating them.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's the world I
21
came from.  But that really was -- well, that's how I
22
thought.  And -- but we didn't sleep together again
23
for, I don't know, really a significant period of
24
time.  And when I say --
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  Like years or?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't know if it was
2
a year.  I don't -- it feels that feels long, but
3
maybe nine months, I mean, a long time.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And I just want to go
6
back to -- I had found a house for him to rent in
7
New York, because he had asked me -- I had been
8
looking at one for my father, and I found one, which
9
was a former Iranian embassy, I think it was.  I
10
think it belonged to the Iranians, or the Iraqis or
11
someone.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And I didn't know that
14
he had any money.  It was like, I want to say it was
15
$12,000 a month, which to me seemed like a fortune.
16
And I said to myself, I found this house, but I don't
17
think you can afford it.  He was like, that's
18
ridiculous.  Of course I can afford, and he rented
19
it.
20
           And that house came with -- it was a State
21
Department house, because it was -- I think that was
22
under sequestration or whatever it was.
23
           And I -- I put it back together, but there
24
were certain rules, you couldn't paint, because it
25
had to go back and he gave it back to the country
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then.
2
           So he had this house and I had moved into
3
a 10 foot by 10 foot apartment, because all of our
4
stuff had been either lost or frozen or -- or
5
whatever.
6
           So he became, in this moment, my life
7
line, really, because I was -- everything was --felt
8
very similar to this moment, if that makes sense.
9
           Anyway, so but I had no key to his house.
10
I had no free access to his house.  And in the entire
11
time that he lived there, which was I believe until,
12
the beginning of 1996, I never slept a single night
13
in that house.  Never ever.  Not one.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  But you -- so you -- you --
15
you said a minute ago that the -- that you had slept
16
with him on one occasion, and at the time you
17
remember thinking, you know, that this meant you were
18
in a relationship, but then it didn't -- you really
19
were not in that type of relationship.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, I thought --
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did that change over --
22
between '91 and '92 or whatever and -- and -- and
23
years forward?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I did travel with
25
him a lot.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I would go to his
3
houses in Palm Beach.  He only had that house
4
actually in -- no, that's not true.  He had the house
5
in Palm Beach and he had a house in Ohio.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  In where?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Ohio.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And he had the house
10
in Ohio because of his business relationship with
11
Mr. Wexner.  And he had a -- and I had to go and
12
decorate and put that house together.  When we
13
traveled together, we stayed in the same bed, but not
14
in -- but I didn't --
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Go ahead.  It's okay, talk.
16
           So you -- you stayed -- so when you would
17
travel with him to his houses in Palm Beach, Ohio, or
18
even just traveling, if -- if -- if it was just
19
traveling with him, you would stay in the same bed.
20
So sleep in the same bed with him.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Epstein told me that
24
he had a heart condition.
25
           DAVID MARKUS:  A what?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Heart condition.
2
           DAVID MARKUS:  Heart condition.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  A heart condition.  Okay.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Which meant that he
5
didn't have intercourse a lot, which suited me fine,
6
because I actually do have a medical condition, which
7
precludes me having a lot of intercourse.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  So what -- what was your
9
understanding of his heart condition and why that
10
prevented him from having intercourse regularly?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't know.  I mean,
12
he liked other forms of sexual activities.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Well, let's come back.
14
           We're going to obviously spend some
15
time -- a lot of time on the actual conduct he was
16
accused of.  So we'll --
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- we'll -- we'll come back
19
to that.  So pick up where you -- where you were
20
talking about you traveling around with him, he
21
rented the New York, former Iranian House --
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Iranian, there you go.
23
Yeah.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- until around '96.  At
25
that time, you -- I believe you said that he was
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basically your life, like you were with him pretty
2
regularly.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, I -- no.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I never was with
6
him regularly.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That is one of those
9
misnomers.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I mean, at the
12
beginning I did see more of him, but I worked in his
13
office.  So I would go to the office and I would see
14
him, and I would count in my head when I would see
15
him.  I would count that I would -- that would be a
16
day that I would see him.  But I didn't -- I never,
17
ever stayed with him.
18
           I believe certainly until '93 or '94, what
19
I didn't know was that I think he was still with his
20
actual girlfriend who was Eva Andersson, who became
21
Eva Dubin.  They had been together, my understanding,
22
I think about 10 years.  I'm not sure, but that's
23
what I think, 10 years.
24
           And I had understood from my girlfriend
25
initially, that they weren't together and Epstein
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himself had told me that they were not together.  But
2
I don't -- I don't think that was true.  In fact, I
3
know it's not true.  So they were still together, up
4
until, I think '94, when at some point, in that
5
period of time, Eva met Glenn Dubin and they got
6
married, I think in '94.
7
           I don't remember when they got married,
8
but her, she was his best friend and his everything,
9
he told me that he always wished that he had married
10
her and had a child with her.
11
           And I know that they -- she was family for
12
him for his whole life.  And I think even -- I'm not
13
sure this is true, but you guys will know if this is
14
true or not.  When he came from -- back from Paris
15
and you arrested him, I don't know if Eva was on the
16
plane.
17
           Now, I think that either I read it in the
18
-- in the discovery that I received, or I saw it
19
somewhere.  But even if she wasn't on the plane,
20
there must have been some email communication where
21
she was in Paris at the same time and going to fly
22
back.
23
           One or the other, I don't know which one
24
is the correct version of that.  But so they were
25
still obviously very close and remained throughout
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the time.  In fact, he -- he was-- still saw her a
2
lot.
3
           And so I also know now, which I didn't
4
know at the time, was that he saw lots of other
5
women.  And I know that now, because I can see -- I
6
can see it from the flight logs and I know it now
7
because I can see from the emails.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  So, you know from the
9
case --
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes, not from --
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- that what happened.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes, I didn't know --
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  You didn't know that along
14
the way.
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I contemporaneously, I
16
absolutely did not know.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  So, okay -- so just -- and
18
we're going to spend time on everything you're
19
talking about, but just to kind of close out the big
20
picture of your relationship.
21
           So we're now in the late '90s, continue on
22
with, again, staying high level to the extent you
23
can, about your relationship with him.
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So after -- so my
25
responsibilities increased with each acquisition that
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he had and each new project.  So I believe the first
2
thing that he purchased after was the ranch in
3
New Mexico.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And so what he had
6
tasked me with up until that, and I think that was
7
purchased in '94, if I'm right.  So he had tasked me,
8
one of the things that we did was visit, in my mind,
9
I say every state, but it wouldn't have been every
10
state, but many states, to go look at real estate
11
property.
12
           And so I know we went to Montana.  I know
13
we went to Utah and it was -- it was to go look at
14
real estate.  It was fun, to be honest.
15
           And then I arranged for us to go to
16
New Mexico and he just loved New Mexico.  And then I
17
don't remember how the ranch happened.  I don't
18
remember that now, it's lost.  And then he ended up
19
buying the ranch.
20
           And I think, if I'm right, it came from --
21
well, the Kings who may have been the governor, I --
22
you know, bought the ranch.  And then I had to deal
23
with that.  Dealing with that was the extent of it.
24
           The way that I thought of myself, or the
25
way that I think is the best way to explain how I
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view my role, was as a general manager.  Because each
2
property, to me was like a -- a hotel.
3
           So the ranch was very challenging, because
4
not only that, but it had BLM land, so to help
5
maintain your BLM, you have to have cattle and I love
6
animals.
7
           And so the first thing, horses.  And so I
8
wanted it, if you're going to have a ranch, I like
9
authenticity.  And so I don't think you should have a
10
ranch if you're not going to have the things that
11
make it special.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  So were you -- were you
13
paid by him along the way --
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I --
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- during this time?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I became -- I became
17
salaried at some point.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- I -- my memory is
20
that I got paid $25,000 a year to begin with.  That's
21
my memory.  I may be wrong.  And then with each -- as
22
it became obvious, because I kept thinking I was
23
going to go home; home being England.  And -- but
24
it --
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you -- and financially,
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you were not relying on him, the -- the $25,000 or
2
whatever amount you were paid, were you relying on
3
that money to live and his generosity to live or did
4
you have your own -- your own money.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So there's a --
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  And again, I -- I want to
7
just make sure we're talking about that.  Like
8
keeping it between like the late '90s, you know,
9
maybe, I guess into a little of the 2000s.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I just want to hit
11
something on the head right now.  There's a
12
tremendous amount of reporting that said that I had a
13
--
14
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  A trust fund.
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Thank you.  A trust
16
fund.  I have never had a trust fund, at any time.
17
           DAVID MARKUS:  So how did you live, did
18
you live with -- with -- I mean, $25,000 is not
19
enough to live on.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No. So I had -- during
21
this period of time, the secret -- secret, the
22
Serious Fraud Squad had come to see me, in relation
23
to my father's passing, and to establish whether I
24
had been involved in any way with his business or
25
with any shenanigans.
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           I think -- I've told this story many
2
times, so I don't know if it's now somewhat
3
apocryphal, but I'll tell you what it -- my memory
4
is.
5
           So I received a letter from them that said
6
about my business, and my memory may be apocryphal,
7
there was a PS that said (unintelligible), I had
8
nothing.  There was no -- I was never involved in any
9
of his business, whatever, so I was free.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  And were you -- so, but
11
your -- you know, obviously your -- your father and
12
your family had a lot of businesses.  Did -- is it
13
because the money, whatever money or whatever equity
14
was in the businesses, just stayed with your other
15
family members?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No, there was no
17
money.  So my father was never attached to money.  He
18
was born a peasant, a real one.  Dirt floor, no
19
shoes, no clothes -- some clothes, but not, you know,
20
sorry, I don't mean to say -- nothing.
21
           And he never -- he was never into that.  I
22
mean, there were things that he had his
23
extravagances, he loved his boat and his plane.  So
24
obviously you need money for that.  But there was no,
25
nothing else.  And there was not a single penny that
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came to any of us, at any time, ever.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So -- so when you
3
are talking about your life with Mr. Epstein in the
4
'90s, you -- you're -- you're not -- you -- you're
5
very different financially.  You -- you're very
6
different financially positioned than he is --
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- meaning he's giving you
9
money, he's paying for your -- when you fly, he -- I
10
assume pays for your flights.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Okay.  So you -- you
13
-- I interrupted you when you were saying how you
14
were functioning as a general manager.  You helped
15
with the New Mexico ranch.
16
           So did -- did your role with him continue
17
like that for many years or for how long?
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I continued -- in
19
2000 -- well, in -- by 1999, our relationship had
20
foundered.  In --
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Why?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- well, two
23
reasons:  We were never sleeping together again.  So
24
we stopped having sexual relations in 1999.  Not full
25
sex.  Sorry, just to be clear.  Didn't mean that we
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didn't still share a bed bedroom sometimes or
2
whatever.  He had another girlfriend.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  He had what?
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Other girlfriends.  I
5
definitively knew that it was over after 9/11,
6
actually, because we were both in New York and I
7
don't know, were you in New York on 9/11?  I mean,
8
9/11 ...
9
           And it was a scary time if you were in New
10
York.  You didn't know, I didn't know, nobody knew
11
what was going on.  And he was in 71st Street and I
12
was in 65th Street, my house.
13
           And he wouldn't see me at all.  Asked me,
14
his mum, who I'm very close to, who's in hospital at
15
Lennox Hill, just asked me to look after her.  And
16
then I knew, as anyone did at that time, if you're
17
not going to be there for someone in 9/11, you're
18
never going to be there.  So for me, that was the
19
line's end.  And he had another English girlfriend
20
actually, from 2000.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Are you, though, still on
22
his -- are you still being paid by him at this point?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So -- so go ahead.
25
           So what -- what -- at that point, when you
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say you realized kind of it was over?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, I mean, I'm
3
talking about the -- the -- I had had, there was a --
4
I had wanted to get married and have children.
5
           And Epstein had encouraged me to believe
6
that that would -- I don't know about the --
7
certainly by the mid late '90s, I knew the marriage
8
part was never going to happen.  I had believed that
9
maybe in '96, '97, '98 maybe, but then I realized it
10
wasn't that.  But I did think that we might have a
11
child, which is what I had really wanted.  And I
12
realized --
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  So -- so -- okay.  So what
14
happens between 2001 and then 2019 with your
15
relationship with him?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So --
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Give or take, 2001.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So we stopped having
19
physicality.  I mean, that doesn't mean we weren't
20
friends.  I certainly did stay, sometimes, in his
21
room.  I mean, friends with benefits, if you will,
22
just not sex.  Sorry.
23
           And I started dating.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And I met someone that
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I fell very much in love with in 2003.  His name was
2
Ted Waitt.  Ted Waitt, you may know as the founder of
3
Gateway, the computers.  And we had an amazing
4
relationship that ended in -- went on until 2010, I
5
think.  And I was with Ted from that time.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you meet him through
7
Mr. Epstein?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  Well, indirectly,
9
I suppose you could say so.  No, they'd never met.  I
10
was at a dinner where I met Ted, but it wasn't -- I
11
was with President Clinton.  President Clinton was my
12
friend, not Epstein's friend.
13
           And Epstein had flown him and there was a
14
dinner and Ted came to the dinner.  So I guess,
15
indirectly, through Mr. Epstein, because it was with
16
his plane, but I'd have been there anyway without
17
him.  I had -- was not the --
18
           DAVID MARKUS:  Was Epstein on the plane
19
when you guys flew?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  On that trip, yes.
21
Well, yes.  They -- that, yes.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  So when you say the -- the
23
dinner was -- was where?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Hong Kong.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  And so the -- and
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you had flown over with -- so who was on the plane
2
for that trip?  I don't mean everybody.
3
           When you said, so Mr. Epstein was on the
4
plane?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  You were on the plane?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Who else, that you can
9
remember?  I'm not, you know, you only remember what
10
you remember.
11
           DAVID MARKUS:  Was President Clinton on
12
the plane?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Clinton.  He would've
14
-- he would've had his guy, Doug Vance, maybe Jason
15
Cooper, maybe the two.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  And you -- and so why --
17
so -- so how do you meet -- so -- so why did you say
18
that's when you met him and that you met him through
19
Clinton?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, it was a -- I
21
don't think Ted would've been there, had it not been
22
a -- it was a President Clinton dinner and Ted came
23
to be with President Clinton --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  I see.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Not to be with
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Mr. Epstein.  Does that make sense?
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yes.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's why I say that.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So you're -- you're,
5
so in the time that you're dating, that you're with
6
him to 2009, are you still working for Mr. Epstein
7
during that time?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So his -- so it'd be
9
true to say that Jeffrey tried very hard, he tried
10
very hard to -- to keep me to working for him,
11
because this is a complex operator.
12
           I'm not talking about anything untoward,
13
just the sheer size of the projects.  I'm talking the
14
construction projects, the houses, the staff.  It's
15
a -- it's a really significant job.  And I ran all
16
the properties, the staff in the properties, the
17
management of the properties that -- and all the
18
construction.
19
           And we're talking tens of millions of
20
dollars for the island alone.  I can't remember what
21
the budget was for the construction on any given
22
year, it's gone.
23
           But it -- it was -- these are very
24
significant projects.  And so that was what I did.
25
And I managed the budgets.  Well, not, I didn't
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manage the budgets, I oversaw the budgets.  So I
2
would just make sure that if you said you bought an
3
air conditioning part, I saw an air conditioning part
4
and I could call the island manager.
5
           Did you receive the Carrier, whatever, you
6
know.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  When did Mr. Epstein
8
purchase the island?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I want to say '96 or
10
'97, something like that.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So we're going to
12
come back and spend more time on the money with --
13
with respect to Mr. Epstein and -- and his wealth.
14
           But just so we can finish this, so in
15
2009, you end your relationship with Ted.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  2009, 2010.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I can't remember if it
19
was '10.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So in that time
21
period, what happens next with -- as far as your
22
relationship with Mr. Epstein?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't have one with
24
him.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  You don't have one with
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him, like you don't see him or it's just a different
2
relationship?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I did see -- I maybe
4
saw him once or twice, maybe even three times.  I
5
certainly went to his house once, for sure, maybe
6
twice.  But I was not seeing him.
7
           The only time that I was in touch with him
8
was when the things happened.  Like things, I mean,
9
in the press that affected me or when the CVRA case
10
was filed and there was like rubbish that went out,
11
because I needed information.
12
           Because I didn't know -- I didn't know
13
anything about what was happening and I needed his
14
help.  A, to under- -- I -- I-- well, that doesn't
15
sound right.  Let me rephrase that.  I don't mean his
16
help.  I meant to have answers, so that I had an
17
ability to defend myself, that's what I'm talking
18
about.  I'm not talking any- --
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  So when does that
20
relationship change?  So -- so you're working -- you
21
talked about when your -- the physical relationship
22
stopped and then you're still working for him, or
23
with him managing his properties and being -- serving
24
as like a general manager.
25
           You then start your own relationship with
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another individual from -- with Ted from 2003 till
2
2009 or '10.  At what point in that whole period is
3
there like more of a break, where you're no longer
4
acting as his general manager?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I -- I wanted to
6
have a full break when I started dating Ted.  And he
7
was clever.  I -- I -- I suppose it would be true to
8
say that I sort of viewed Mr. Epstein, at that point,
9
as sort of family, if you will.  Like someone I could
10
rely on.
11
           And I should have had more confidence in
12
myself.  I can see that now.  But at the time, given
13
everything that had happened in my life, I thought
14
that it would -- and I saw how he was with other
15
people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable
16
with him, and I thought this would be -- and he
17
always said, I was like family.
18
           So he worked hard to make -- maintain a
19
relationship with me.  He was generous with me.  He
20
let me use the plane, for instance, which was very
21
generous, he would check in with my mum.  He did
22
things that were meaningful to me in that time.
23
           And then, it may still not have worked,
24
but that his -- his mother, Paula, had been in a very
25
serious car crash.  And I -- she had become sort of
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like a -- a surrogate mother for me, sort of, because
2
my mum wasn't there.  I could -- I could look after
3
her the way that I would -- sorry.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  It's all right.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  The way that I
6
would've liked to look after my own mum.  So I became
7
very close to his mother.
8
           And she had been in a car crash and in
9
2004, I believe it -- it may have been 2005, I -- I
10
don't recall exactly.  She took a -- her health took
11
a serious decline.  And Epstein called me and asked
12
me if I could look after her.  And by looking after
13
her, that meant organizing her doctors, making sure
14
she had new clothes, making sure her house was clean.
15
           DAVID MARKUS:  Where was she?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  She lived in -- in a
17
retirement establishment in -- outside of Palm Beach,
18
outside of -- its West Palm.  I want -- I was going
19
to say something like the Golden Girls, but it's not
20
called that.  I just don't remember what it's called.
21
But it was an old age -- it was a retirement home, if
22
you will.
23
           DAVID MARKUS:  Todd, I don't know, we've
24
been going for maybe about an hour now.
25
           Do you think -- is this a good time to --
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1
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah -- yeah.  So we'll
2
take a -- we'll take a break.
3
           DAVID MARKUS:  Yep.
4
           SPENCER HORN:  All right.  So we're going
5
to take a break, the time is 10:56.
6
         (Break at 10:56 a.m. to 11:07 a.m.)
7
           SPENCER HORN:  We're continuing the
8
proffer interview with Ms. Maxwell.  The time is
9
11:07 a.m., on Thursday, July 24th.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  All right.  So just picking
11
up where we just stopped.  So -- so you -- you have
12
basically a break.  Well, not a break, that's the
13
wrong word, but your -- your relationship with
14
Mr. Maxwell [sic] -- professional and other changes
15
in 2003, '04?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah.  I mean, and
17
over the time that I stay with Ted, the more time I'm
18
with Ted, the more distance I have with him.  And
19
then when the arrest -- well, let's go back.
20
           When he -- whatever -- whatever happened
21
in 2005 and he became arrested in 2006.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  So when he's charged and
23
arrested in what we'll call the Florida
24
Investigations, that's what you're talking about?
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I am.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Go ahead.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I had -- I was not
3
in -- well --
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Well, were you part of that
5
investigation?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely not.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did -- did law enforcement
8
ever talk to you as part of that?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you, like, the feds
11
never talked to you --
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- the FBI never talked to
14
you?
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know --
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I never even received
18
a phone call.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- did you -- so you didn't
20
receive a subpoena?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did the state law
23
enforcement ever reach out to you?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  As far as you know, did the
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government, either state or federal, subpoena your
2
bank records or subpoena anything from your financial
3
life, during that time?  During the -- that time?
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  Not as far as I'm
5
aware.  Now, if they did, I don't know it and I have
6
-- I have no idea about that, to be honest.  But I'm
7
-- I'm not aware of it and I would say no, but maybe
8
you guys do things that I don't know.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  So how did -- how did you
10
learn of that case?  When Mr. Epstein was arrested,
11
or did you know that something was happening before
12
then?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  The -- the first thing
14
I knew was he had told me he was deciding to
15
redecorate the house in Palm Beach.  It didn't
16
surprise me, it was like a rolling situation.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  And, but by that time are
18
you doing -- are you -- like he tells you because he
19
wants your help or your relationship changed by this
20
time where you were no longer kind of acting his --
21
as his general manager?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  I was -- I was
23
still around.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I wasn't gone.  I was
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with Ted.  I was traveling.  I wasn't daily -- if you
2
would ask me where he was in any given time, I'm not
3
sure I would've known then.  I mean, it was, I -- I
4
felt like I suppose the relationship moved into sort
5
of like a long-term friend-family, you know, like --
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- like I felt he had
8
with Eva, if I'm honest.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  Okay.  So -- so he
10
says to you he's going to redecorate the Palm Beach
11
house.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He -- he asked me
13
specifically which decorator he thinks I -- he should
14
use, because I had a lot of contacts with decorators
15
and he was not very good with people.  He was useless
16
at maintaining relationships with people who worked
17
for him, I'm not.  So anyways, I recommended -- I
18
think I recommended.  I can't be a hundred percent
19
sure, because it's been a long time, but I think I
20
recommended Mark Zeff at that time.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Who?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Mark Zeff --
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- I believe.  And I
25
don't know why.  I -- I don't remember.  That's all
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lost to time.  But anyway, at some point, I think his
2
mother had died now.  I can't remember the timing of
3
all of that either.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  But I ended up in Palm
6
Beach and he had asked me to come and look at the
7
swatches or whatever he was doing, because they had
8
laid it all out over the house and various things,
9
and I think he'd asked for my opinion.  That's my
10
memory of this.
11
           It may also be that Ted and I were going
12
to Palm Beach, because Ted had a golf match or
13
something.  There was a reason I was in Palm Beach.
14
It wasn't solely -- I don't -- maybe that's not true
15
either.  I don't know.  So I --
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- there's a, you
18
know, sometimes I went to Palm Beach because Ted was
19
there.  I don't know if that's part of that time --
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Go ahead -- go ahead.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- or Ted went there
22
and left me.  I don't know, something.
23
           Anyway, I was there.  No.  That's not how
24
that went either.  No.  Anyway, at some point in that
25
time, I saw all the swatches, at some point in 2005,
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I think that was.  And then I believe, or I don't
2
remember.  I -- I think I got a phone call actually.
3
I wasn't in Palm Beach.  I think I got a phone call
4
that there was a police at his house or something.
5
There was a --
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  And would you have gotten a
7
phone call from him or you think you were just told
8
by somebody that knew that it had happened or don't
9
-- or don't you remember?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Definitely not him.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think it would've
13
been the houseman.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  So when that happens,
15
whenever it was, that's kind of the first time you
16
know that Mr. Epstein's being investigated for --
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- I didn't even
18
know what that -- I didn't even understand.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I didn't have a
21
context for that.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  It was like, I didn't
24
even know -- I -- I didn't know.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So after --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I didn't -- I
2
didn't -- I didn't -- I'm not sure even what I
3
thought.  I was like, that's weird.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- so after he -- after you
5
find out about it, what happens with your
6
relationship with him?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I asked him.  I asked
8
him what was going on --
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- and he said, I --
11
I -- not to worry.  Nothing, nothing, taking care.
12
Don't worry about it (indiscernible) and then it all
13
went quiet.  I didn't -- he didn't say, he didn't
14
share.  I wasn't part of it at all.  I was off with
15
Ted and I really just --
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did he tell you -- well,
17
why don't we come back to more specifics around that
18
time period in a few minutes --
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- I want to just finish
21
this opening part.
22
           So that case goes on, ultimately it ends.
23
What -- what -- what was your relationship like with
24
him during that case, when he goes, you know, when
25
he -- when he was sentenced.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He asked -- he -- he
2
-- he told me, he said, "Listen.  I'm going to jail."
3
I was like, "Okay."  And he goes, "I would like you
4
to stay on board to manage the properties, the
5
animals, this and that, and just stay put and I'll
6
continue to pay you.  In case there's any emergency,
7
I don't trust anyone."  And I was like, "Okay."
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Well, when you said
9
continue to pay, had he con--- has he --
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He had never stopped
11
paying me.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  He never stopped paying
13
you.  So even when your relationship changes, you're
14
getting -- does the amount increase from the $25,000
15
or so a year from the beginning?  Like how much are
16
you getting paid yearly?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think it ended -- at
18
the time, well, we had different payment structures
19
and I'm happy to explain how that was, but I think
20
salary wise, if I'm right, it ended at around a
21
quarter of a million a year.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  How much?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Quarter of a million.
24
$250,000.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  And when -- and when did it
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end?  When was that that it stopped?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  2008, or '09.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  So --
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  '09.  When did he come
5
out of jail?  Whenever he came out of jail.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So, and over the
7
years, it increased from what you said was you
8
thought about $25,000 to $250,000.  That's between
9
like '90, early '90s until 2009 or '10, whenever he
10
stopped; is that right?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes -- yes.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  And how were you paid?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  W2.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  W2 from which -- from what
15
company?  Or do you --
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He, like I -- he just
17
moved me around over to this company, that, I didn't
18
care --
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- and I didn't care
21
and I didn't think that -- I didn't understand any
22
rhyme or reason, it doesn't, I just, you know,
23
whatever --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So --
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- so maybe --
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           TODD BLANCHE:  -- so when he's going to go
2
to jail, he says, "Can you stay around and manage
3
everything."
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  And do you do that?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  And then -- and then
8
we'll come back to that.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, not manage
10
everything, no.  I mean there are other people at
11
this point.  My specific role then was very, very
12
diminished.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I reviewed the bill
15
structure that came from the constructions, that were
16
still made, the island --
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- and wherever else I
19
was going, Paris at this point, because I speak
20
French, I'm fluent in French.
21
           And also my relationship with the French
22
decorator was critical to him.  And in the French
23
component part of -- of that aspect, that was really
24
vital and so you would have had to find someone who
25
was -- well, actually, and the Spanish trilingual,
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you would've had to find someone who was trilingual
2
to -- and that he trusted --
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you --
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- to manage, not
5
steal from him.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you -- so when he gets
7
out of jail, between that time 2009 or '10, and 2019,
8
what's your relationship like with -- with
9
Mr. Epstein?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Almost nonexistent.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Why?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- I had just moved
13
on and I just didn't want to have anything to -- I
14
didn't want the drama.  I didn't want to be
15
associated with ...
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  So do you recall -- when
17
you say "almost non-existent," does that mean --
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  It doesn't mean it --
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- was it some phone calls,
20
some visits --
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I definitely.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- some trips, or what does
23
it mean?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- I -- I don't -- I
25
don't think there were any trips.  Oh, I don't -- I
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don't think so.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Where were you living
3
during that time period?  Or was it --
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Which time period?
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Between 2009, '10 and 2019?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I was back in
7
New York.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So you had no -- so
9
when you -- so -- so your -- you had phone calls with
10
him on occasion?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.  Well, I
12
certainly did when it -- whenever there was any legal
13
drama or any like, serious press attention, I always
14
called him to try and find out what was going on.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Okay.  And then --
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And I did email him at
17
that time for those types of details.  It was like,
18
what do I do?  What, I mean, I was like ...
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  And -- and then when he's
20
charged in New York federally --
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- how did you learn about
23
that case?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  In the press.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  And had you, as far as you
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know, been contacted by law enforcement before his
2
arrest?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  I wasn't in an
4
indictment.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  No.  I know that, but even
6
as a witness or -- or asking you if you would give
7
documents or materials?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I had never -- up
9
until he -- up until when my lawyers said that, I
10
don't even know.  I -- I had no knowledge of them
11
being interested in me, honestly.  I don't -- I want
12
to say until he had died.
13
           Now I know that my lawyers were in touch
14
with the Southern District of New York at some point
15
after his arrest.  I'm pretty sure that had to have
16
happened, right --
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- but I -- my
19
understanding is that they had not shown any
20
interest.  I know my lawyers went to see them once, I
21
believe, and --
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Went to see him meaning
23
Mr. Epstein?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No, them.  So Southern
25
District of New York.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  The Southern
2
District of New York.  Okay.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry.  And that they
4
had been in regular, in touch with him and --
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  But now you're talking
6
about after Mr. Epstein died or are you talking about
7
before he died?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think, I --
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  If you can remember.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Easily verifiable.  I
11
-- my memory is that they were in touch with him when
12
he was arrested.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't know if
15
anything happened until after his death, then after
16
that.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't think they saw
19
them -- met with them, Southern District of New York
20
I'm talking about now, until after he died.  I know
21
that they were in regular telephone contact with them
22
and that my lawyers believed that they had been told
23
that there was no interest in me --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- and were absolutely
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stunned when I was arrested.  But maybe stunned is
2
too big a word, but surprised.  I certainly was.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So let's -- okay.
4
So that's -- that's -- was a long description of --
5
of what was a very long life and that was very
6
helpful.  So I want to go back and talk more
7
specifically now about particular areas, and, but
8
that was a -- a very helpful kind of foundation
9
for -- for us.
10
           The first -- the first thing I want to
11
talk about, you talked about earlier on, about
12
Mr. Epstein's financial success.  What -- you know,
13
do you know how he -- when you first meet him, at
14
some point you say, "I got this place for you to
15
rent, you can't afford it."  And he laughs at you and
16
says, "Yes.  I can."
17
           What did you learn about his wealth and
18
how he was -- and how he accumulated his money?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I can tell you what he
20
told me.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yes.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I -- I know that he
23
was hired from working at a private school whose name
24
eludes me at this point.
25
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  Dalton.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Dalton.  He was
2
working at Dalton, he was a math teacher.  And he
3
met, I think it was Ace, I'm not sure.  He met
4
someone from Bear who hired him, because he was very
5
good at math.  And I believe that he then worked on
6
creating a trading of, oh, my gosh.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Just describe it.  It's
8
okay.  Go ahead.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He came -- came up
10
with some new type of trading system.  Not -- not a
11
system so much, but as a -- as a -- as a --as
12
vehicle.  A trading vehicle.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm just escaping
15
right now.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  And this is while -- while
17
he was working at -- at Bear Stearns?
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  At Bear Stearns.  Yes.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.  Okay.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And, well --
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  And was this before you met
22
him?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  So this is what he told
25
you.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  What you learned?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.  This is what he
4
told me --
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- himself.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  And so -- and then
8
eventually he starts a financial firm?  Do you know
9
that to be true or no?  J. Epstein & Company.  You
10
ever heard of that?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think it's, yeah.
12
Yes.  So hang on a minute.  So I -- this I did not
13
know, but this I have subsequently learned --
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- is that he had some
16
problem or some issue at Bear Stearns and there was
17
some, I don't know, disagreement.  He wasn't fired,
18
because obviously he was still very friendly with Ace
19
and with Jimmy, at least by the time I met him, but
20
they were working with him and he ran -- he had cli-
21
-- money at Bear Stearns, and --
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- his money, his
24
client's money.  We'll -- I'll come to that.
25
           But he started -- he told me himself that
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he started a business where he looked for stolen
2
money.  So if somebody -- let's see.  I'm trying to
3
think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't
4
think of anything, I've been with -- not great --
5
I'll -- I'll give it to you.
6
           So let's say you have El Chapo, oh God, I
7
don't know where he comes from.  But anyway, we've
8
got El Chapo.  And El Chapo's laundering money or
9
still -- he's working with the Sinaloa Cartel and he
10
steals money from the Sinaloa Cartel and he moves it
11
to wherever.  So he's got stolen money from the
12
Sinaloa, goes to it.  This didn't happen.  I'm just
13
--
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah -- yeah.  I
15
understand.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- just coming up with
17
something in my head.  And the Sinaloa says to
18
Epstein, "Can you track down my billion dollars that,
19
the car- -- the other cartel stole from me?"  And
20
Epstein will go and find the billion dollars and will
21
take a portion of the money that was stolen at a fee
22
and give back the remainder.  That would be on a
23
percentage basis.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  No.  But like what you just
25
described, which I appreciate what you said, a
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hypothetical --
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  The -- the -- please,
3
that was completely hypothetical.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- but that -- but that
5
would involve like, so two kind of drug cartels
6
stealing from each other.
7
           Practically speaking, did -- he was a --
8
more of a businessman, correct?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So here's how I think
10
that started, is that he had a girlfriend.  It was
11
always you -- you -- always to the girls.  I guess
12
there was a girl whose name will come back to me,
13
maybe not, whilst we're here, but I don't know,
14
maybe.  There's a woman --
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- there's always a
17
woman.  And he -- she was the daughter of a
18
billionaire, for instance.  And that billionaire,
19
whoever his --whatever his name was, had had some
20
money stolen.  And for some reason this woman
21
introduced Jeffrey, and Jeffrey, I think that's how
22
that business started.  That's what I remember.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  And is that something he
24
told you about or something that happened while you
25
knew him?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  Something he told
2
me before I met him.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  And so when you meet him
4
and -- and once you're part of his life in the early
5
to mid '90s, what is he doing to make money that you
6
see?  He -- does he have clients?  Does he have rich
7
clients?  Does he have famous clients?  And -- and
8
how -- and what -- if he does have clients, what
9
service is he providing them?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He does have -- well,
11
obviously there's the one very famous client that
12
everybody talks about, which is Les Wexner.  That was
13
a very important client to him.  And he -- I think
14
it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine --
15
what I imagine, know -- would I know to be true about
16
what he managed for Les.  And there's some bits that
17
I'll be improvising --
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yep.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- I --
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- I want to just make
22
you understand, I was not part of Epstein's business
23
world, except tangentially and obviously.  So what
24
I'm talking about is I -- what I observed or what I
25
overheard or what I saw within the business, but I
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wasn't responsible for any of the client's money or
2
anything like that.  So it's separate.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Yeah.  I understand.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Go ahead.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So with Les, for
7
instance, it was really all encompassing.  It could
8
go from the structure of the business.  So he
9
would -- he structured or restructured The Limited.
10
           I know that, and I'll come back to that
11
because I also traveled with him and Les, and I was
12
in business meetings with them on the plane when they
13
were there.  So I could observe and I could hear some
14
of this.
15
           And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly
16
business sophisticated, I'm sophisticated enough to
17
be able to at least have some knowledge of what was
18
happening.
19
           All right.  So then he restructured the
20
business.  He restructured his entire personal
21
finances, and would also handle all of the investment
22
strategy.  I don't know if it was -- if it was a
23
hundred percent --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Mr.  Wexner is what you're
25
saying?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry.  Yes.  All --
2
this is all Wexner I'm talking about now.
3
           So let's say you had a billion dollars to
4
invest.  So you would, you know, in people's normal
5
investment portfolios, you would have, you know, some
6
T-bonds and this and that, but Epstein's strategies
7
would be much more sophisticated than that.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  And so just staying with
9
Mr. Wexner.  Does -- from what you heard or saw, is
10
Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages?  Like so --
11
so there would be a deal and he would be paid or
12
was -- did you understand it to be like a flat fee?
13
Was he a business partner?  Like how did you
14
understand him to be paid?
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think it was more ?
16
la carte.  So let's say this is a conversation I
17
actually -- Epstein told me.  So all -- illustrated
18
for me, said if I saved someone $5 billion, he would
19
take a flat percentage of that $5 billion.  He
20
wouldn't have $5 billion back, and he would take --
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  When you say you think
22
that, is that because you heard him talking about
23
that or you -- you ...
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  It would be a
25
combination of both.  He certainly told me that and I
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heard him talk to people like that.  I couldn't --
2
sorry.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  No -- no.  Go ahead.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did -- was there -- did --
6
did he give -- did Mr. Wexner gift a property in
7
New York to Mr. Epstein?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So we're talking about
9
71st Street.  So I don't know what the business deal
10
was, because, again, I'm not part of his business
11
thing, but I think what happened would be that, let's
12
say Les owed him in, theoretically, for his services,
13
$100 million or whatever it was.  He could have
14
traded that against the property.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  But do you know that that
16
happened or that's -- are you -- are you kind of --
17
do you remember whether there was conversations about
18
that or are you just thinking that could be one way
19
that it happened?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm not sure.  And I'm
21
not trying to be -- I just don't remember if that's
22
something I know or if that's something that I
23
remember, or if it's something that I subsequently
24
know.  I believe -- I believe that to be what
25
happened, but I don't want to tell you that I have --
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Does that make sense?
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did Mr. Wexner and
4
Mr. Epstein -- are you aware of they -- of their
5
falling out that they ultimately had?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think -- I wasn't
7
there and I don't know how it happened.  I only know
8
what Les has said in the press.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  So you only know about
10
their, you know, their falling out or whatever you
11
want to call it, from what you've kind of read, not
12
from any firsthand knowledge?  You did -- you weren't
13
there, you weren't part of that?
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Correct.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know somebody named
16
Steven Hoffenberg?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Only from the press.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  And so you don't
19
know anything about whatever business relationship
20
they may have had, Mr. Epstein --
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never spoke about him,
22
never mentioned it.  I -- I only learned about that,
23
whatever that is, even -- I don't even know what the
24
truth is of that story, from the press.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  How about Leon Black?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, I did meet Leon.
2
I do know Leon.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  When do you remember -- and
4
again, I know we're talking about a very long time
5
ago, but do you remember approximately when you met
6
him?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I could have met Leon,
8
not really -- so I might have met him, nothing to do,
9
because Leon Black is very good friends with other
10
friends of mine.  I would've met him, when I say
11
socially, I might have met him.  How Leon and Epstein
12
became really good friends, I don't -- I'm not sure.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  But not through you, as far
14
as you recall?
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  Not through me as
16
far as I know.  No.  I -- in fact, I'm -- I'm sure
17
that's not through me.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know what kind of
19
work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the
20
years?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Same as what he did
22
for Wexner.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  So we just talked about two
24
individuals.  And again, I know we're talking about
25
a, maybe a 15-year time period or even longer.
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           How many clients like that did Mr. Epstein
2
have?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  But why don't I just
4
give you the names that I remember and that's --
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Say it again.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Why won't I just give
7
you the names.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Do you want the names?
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Sure.  Go ahead.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Elizabeth Johnson --
12
Johnson & Johnson.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  When did -- as far as you
14
know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson
15
and Mr. Epstein start?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  '90s.  '90 -- I
17
don't -- I -- '95, '96.  '90s.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  So during the time period?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.  We're talking
20
'90s.  We're talking when I was there.  When I was
21
around.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  And how did the
23
relationship start?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't know how he
25
became that friendly where he ended up managing her
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money, I wasn't there.  I mean, he -- I really had a
2
separate life.  We really had separate lives --
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- except where they
5
synced.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  But it wasn't from --
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  It wasn't from me.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- from you?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  It was not.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  And what's your
11
understanding of what Mr. Epstein did for
12
Ms. Johnson?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Same as what he did
14
for Wexner.  And when I -- and you have to
15
understand, it -- it went down to, in tiny details.
16
So I remember this -- I remember, this is an actual
17
memory, that he would make the contracts for the
18
maids, for the people who worked in their homes.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  So he would assist his
20
clients, at times, with -- you're saying with even
21
small things like contractual relations with --
22
with --
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He said no detail was
24
too small, because everything that affected how they
25
lived and how they managed their life, was something
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that he felt he was -- if they want, he would be
2
responsible for, to make sure that the contract -- so
3
that if you had to fire someone, it wouldn't come
4
back and sue you or if that -- that sort of ...
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So Mr. Black,
6
Mr. Werner [sic] -- Ms. Johnson.  Who else?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  What's the name of the
8
woman from Ohio (inaudible).
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Know someone named
10
Jes Staley.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah.  I do know Jes.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Who's that?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He was at Morgan
14
Stanley and at Barclays.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  What do -- do you know
16
whether he and Mr. Epstein had a relationship?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, not a -- not a
18
physical one.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Well --
20
           DAVID MARKUS:  Business one.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- I didn't suggest.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry, I just --
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  No.  I'm saying a -- a
24
relationship in the broadest sense of word; business,
25
personal --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- both.  Okay.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.  Both.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  And do you know when
5
they met?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  I -- no.  I don't
7
know when they met.  But you can time it.  Well, I
8
don't know that you can.  No.  I don't know.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  So, but what was the nature
10
of their relationship, as far as you know?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think they were
12
friends and I think that they were business partners.
13
Well, partners, too strong a word, but they were --
14
they did business together.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  So did you -- again, I want
16
to stay focused on the time where you were the most
17
involved in his life, so --
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  The '90s.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- the early '90s through
20
early 2000s.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And the beginning --
22
beginning of the 2000s, yes.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did -- did you -- so we
24
talked about four people, so --
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  There's more.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  -- were there more?  Okay.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, yes.  There were
3
more.  There was a lady whose name I just can't --
4
can I get my book?  Maybe I wrote them down.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Sure.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  (Indiscernible)
7
Epstein wouldn't really let me meet his clients.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  What book are you using?
9
What is that?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I wrote some notes for
11
the meeting.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Great.  Okay.
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Is that alright?
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  No.  That's fine.  I just
15
was curious what -- what we're looking at.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, okay.
17
           DAVID MARKUS:  Not the birthday book.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  It's not the birthday
19
book.  No.  We are going to come to that, I'm sure.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  All right.  I wrote
22
down some names because I tried to make -- I just
23
want you to understand my -- my memory's not as good
24
as it was, because when I was in Brooklyn, I was in
25
the SHU for almost two years, and I was on suicide
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watch for almost two years, which meant that they
2
woke me up every 15 minutes for the entire time.  And
3
it's -- it really did affect my ability to ...
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Understand.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I'm not --
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  So you've taken some notes
9
in anticipation --
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I just made some names
11
in -- in advance for this --
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  Okay.  So go ahead.
13
So --
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- and you're happy to
15
look at them as well, if you want.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  No.  Go -- go ahead.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  Oh, well, funny
18
you say, first two names.  One is Wexner, two is
19
Staley, three is Leon Black.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Glenn Dubin was a
22
client.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  Who's that?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Eva Dubin's husband.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  What was their, I
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mean, if you can -- do you know when -- about when
2
that relationship started?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Whenever -- well,
4
wouldn't have been before they got married, for sure.
5
So if you're going to start -- you're going to date
6
that from wherever that was.
7
           And then Epstein was heavily involved with
8
Highbridge Capital and the financing or selling of
9
Highbridge to JP Morgan.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Go ahead.
11
Eva Dubin.  Yep.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  You're only
13
looking for clients, so, all right.  There's a
14
woman -- well he -- there's a woman in Ohio.  I just
15
can't think of her name, but it will -- I tried to
16
remember it yesterday and I can't.
17
           DAVID MARKUS:  So this is a good thing.
18
Like, you know, as you think of things, write it
19
down, and if they have any other names, they'll ask
20
you.  But you --
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Right.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  Just --
23
           DAVID MARKUS:  -- don't -- don't force it
24
out.  So -- so you'll have time to think about this,
25
especially today, this afternoon, overnight --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
2
           DAVID MARKUS:  -- because we'll probably
3
meet tomorrow.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  But you can find them.
5
I mean, if you basically find a billionaire female.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  So the woman in Ohio who's
7
wealthy, that you worked with.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And well, you can
9
identify her yourself because she had the largest
10
Klein painting.  That was huge.  So you can find her,
11
because it'll be in a museum.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So that's her.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  And so he -- that was one
15
of Mr. Epstein's clients?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  She was one of
18
Mr. client -- Mr. Epstein's clients as well?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Who else?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, I think that
22
there was people, other people that he would, like,
23
assist.  I know that he helped Lynn Forester, who
24
became Lynn de Rothschild.  She'll deny it and she
25
has, but she -- she can't.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  And when you say "help,"
2
the same help in business or what help?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, so-- so -- I
4
have no idea what he did for her.  I know he helped
5
her financially.  Her husband was the controller of
6
New York.  So, but I don't -- again, I'm not inside
7
his business, but he would've -- his -- his -- this
8
notion that he black -- blackmailed men or we don't
9
really have to go there, that he wasn't a businessman
10
and that everything he did was a fraud or a funk or
11
what -- I don't believe that to be true.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Why?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry?
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Why do you -- so you say
15
you don't believe it to be true, but show me why you
16
think that.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Just from -- I know you've
19
been talking about it, that he was very -- he was
20
very conscientious.  He was very good at math.  He
21
was -- took, paid a lot of attention to his clients,
22
but -- but yes.  You're right.  There's allegations
23
of -- of blackmail or also that -- that there was
24
some level of -- of fraud involved in what he did,
25
and you don't believe it.  Why do you -- why do you
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say that?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, I -- let me
3
rephrase that.  If there was fraud, I never saw it.
4
What I saw or what I felt when I -- his -- I ran that
5
office.  I mean, ran.  I didn't -- I was responsible
6
for the staff.  People worked.  There were lawyers,
7
there were accountants.  I never heard him -- I never
8
-- wit- -- I never felt anything, I don't know, icky.
9
           DAVID MARKUS:  Did -- did you ever see him
10
blackmail a --
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never.
12
           DAVID MARKUS:  -- a client?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
14
           DAVID MARKUS:  Did you ever see him
15
blackmail a -- an -- a friend or an acquaintance?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never.
17
           DAVID MARKUS:  Okay.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Well, so I think when folks
19
talk about block -- blackmail, and we can talk about
20
-- sorry about that.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  We can talk about that now.
23
There are a lot of allegations about him, which
24
we'll -- which we should talk about and we can do
25
that now.  And the fact that he abused young women.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Full stop.  Okay.  Which
3
means, the way that I'm defining abuse, as has been
4
widely reported, is that -- that he would cause young
5
women in high school to be recruited to come to his
6
house and give him massages.  And a part of -- and
7
the -- and the -- and as part of that, he would
8
sexually abuse them, okay?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  So I want to talk about
11
that.  But as it relates to blackmail, the question
12
is whether you're aware of any time, that any of the
13
individuals we're talking about, and we'll talk about
14
others, received massages from women who were under
15
18 or may have been under 18.
16
           And that whether there was any sexual
17
assaults or sexual contact between any of these
18
people and those masseuses, which would've allowed
19
then, Mr. Epstein, potentially, to blackmail them and
20
say, "You have to continue to work with me or you
21
have to give me money, or else I'm going to tell the
22
world that -- that -- that you did this."
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Right.  I -- I think
24
this is a really good place to start with how this
25
story began.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So even, let's assume
3
that that premise is correct, that he was doing that
4
and he was going to tell everybody, going to say,
5
"oh, you know, you had inappropriate relations with
6
an underage girl."  If you don't have a video or
7
photograph, photographic evidence, because I -- I'm
8
not sure that even the FBI would take that.  Well,
9
maybe today, but certainly not back then, would take
10
that seriously.
11
           So you have to have something to say,
12
"Hey, you know, look, I've got this video of you
13
doing terrible things and you need to."  So I built
14
those houses, many of them.  I decorated those
15
houses.  I put the electricians in for the wiring.  I
16
never wired, nor saw, a single house that had any
17
type of inappropriate, let's say, video surveillance.
18
           And I'll define that for you.
19
Inappropriate surveillance would mean in a bathroom,
20
in a bedroom, in any private area of a home.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  In a room where there were
22
massages given?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Inappropriate.  I
24
would say I would define "appropriate" surveillance
25
to be the front door of a house, or potentially, as
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in 71st Street, the physical plant.  Anywhere else
2
would be grotesque.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  So I just want to come back
4
to -- I know I'm just hopefully stating the obvious,
5
but when you say "the houses," you're talking about
6
his New York --
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- brownstone?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  You're talking about the
11
island in -- in the Caribbean?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  You're talking about the
14
residence in Palm Beach?
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  And you're talking about
17
the ranch in New Mexico?
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Anywhere else?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Paris.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  And in Paris.  And so --
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And the plane.  I saw
23
some ridiculous thing with the plane --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  And the plane.  Okay.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- that was what we're
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doing.  Yes.  I didn't --
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  So --
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- I didn't hire any
4
electrician on the plane.  Okay.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- so unequivocally,
6
unequivocally from what you know, and you only know
7
what you know --
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I only know what I
9
know.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- but from what you know,
11
you do not believe a camera exists, or a video camera
12
or a camera that takes pictures, inside any of his
13
residences?
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Correct.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  So even the appropriate
16
cameras that you just talked about, which would be
17
kind of exterior security cameras, did you know
18
whether there was any cameras, that you're aware of,
19
inside any of the locations?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never, with one
21
exception.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  What's the
23
exception?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  The exception is
25
Palm Beach.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And the reason -- so
3
in Palm Beach, Epstein was having money stolen.  He
4
noticed money was being stolen from his briefcase,
5
call it his briefcase.  And he called in the
6
Palm Beach police and they, the Palm Beach police
7
installed cameras on where he kept his briefcase.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Where was that?  Do you
9
remember?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  At his desk in -- so
11
the house on the ground floor was -- he had a desk,
12
sort of in a corner.  There was that camera.  I think
13
there was another camera.  I think there were two or
14
maybe three cameras.  I believe only on the ground
15
floor, wherever he may have had -- maybe he had
16
another office in the cabana.  There may have been a
17
camera there.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  When was this?  I'm not
19
looking for an exact date, but what time period are
20
you thinking about when you say this?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  2003.  I think I can
22
date it for you precisely, actually, 2003.  I'm
23
pretty firm on that date.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  So --
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And I can be firm
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because John Alessi, the butler was fired in the end
2
of 2002 and he was the thief.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  So aside from law
4
enforcement installing a camera, to try to catch
5
somebody stealing money from Mr. Epstein, you're not
6
aware of any cameras at the island -- no.  Sorry.
7
You're -- just so we record it because ...
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, sorry -- sorry --
9
sorry.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  No.  That's okay.  You were
11
nodding your head no.
12
           So what about --
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No cameras anywhere,
14
outside of, possibly, things that would -- I would
15
consider -- myself, I would consider normal.  So the
16
garage gate, something like that, a front door.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Outside, like security
18
cameras?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Security cameras.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  No.  I -- I --
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And there were cameras
22
inside in the 71st Street that did the plant, the
23
physical plant, because it was a commercial building.
24
So you had the whole -- that's a real thing there.
25
It's a commercial building.
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           And there were -- there was one camera on
2
the -- on the front door, internal, from the internal
3
that did the front door, as I recall.  But I -- there
4
were no other cameras inside the house.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever -- how about
6
photographs.  Did you ever observe Mr. Epstein, or
7
anybody around him, take pictures of anybody in
8
compromising positions with women or with -- or with
9
anybody?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever hear, when you
12
were present for conversations that Mr. Epstein was
13
having, or others were having, anybody accuse him of
14
blackmailing them or of trying to extort them,
15
because of something Mr. Epstein knew?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  There have been -- and --
18
and you -- you -- in the discovery you got in the
19
New York case, okay.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  And in the civil cases that
22
you've been part of --
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- associated with
25
Mr. Epstein, have you ever been given or ever been
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told that video exists, like what we're talking
2
about, or photos were taken that -- that were
3
compromising?
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So in the -- in both
5
of those, I never received no pictures or anything
6
from the civil case.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  But in the criminal
9
case, I received videos of Epstein talking to women
10
and stuff like that.  I did get those.  I also saw
11
binders, photographs of women and (indiscernible).  I
12
never saw any, well, I don't know -- I don't know how
13
old some of these women were.  There were definitely
14
some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs
15
of them in -- in -- without clothing.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  And in that -- in those
17
photographs, were -- the victims that were
18
photographed, were there any of the people you've
19
talked about?  Like, were there men with the victims
20
or were they just photographs of the victims?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  There was no men with
22
these pictures.  There was no client of his with
23
those pictures.  They would be standalone, for want
24
of a better word, like modeling shots.  If you
25
were -- if you -- if you were, I don't know.
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           DAVID MARKUS:  Pictures that Epstein had
2
with the girls, but not Epstein with the clients and
3
the girls.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Correct.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you -- I understand you
6
said you got those in the discovery.  Did you know
7
those -- those pictures -- pictures like that
8
existed?
9
           So right now I'm talking about photographs
10
of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein
11
had on his computer or wherever he had them.  Did you
12
know that those photos existed before you got them in
13
discovery?
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Some of them,
15
absolutely, because they were in his house.  Some of
16
these pictures were on his, you know, credenza or
17
whatever.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Some pictures I've
20
simply never seen before.  I mean, there was -- I --
21
I had never seen some of them.  Some of them I had,
22
some of them I hadn't, I mean.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you -- so -- so you're
24
right, and I -- I accept that having video or
25
photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a
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compromising position, would be good blackmail.
2
           But -- so separate -- putting aside what
3
you've said about the fact that you don't know of any
4
existence of those, did you observe, over the years,
5
the folks we're talking about, or others which we can
6
talk about, getting massages from young women?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I -- I just -- I
8
think it's really helpful to understand a few things
9
that has been missed in this whole mishigas.
10
           DAVID MARKUS:  That's a technical term.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  I'll look it up later.
12
           Go ahead.
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I thought about this
14
obviously a lot and I've given it --
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yep.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- some -- so this is
17
the benefit of -- some benefit of what I saw and some
18
benefit of what I now think, so just for clarity's
19
sake.
20
           I think -- I just want to say for the
21
record, that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of,
22
not all, but some of what he's accused of.  And I'm
23
not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever.  I
24
don't want to, and I don't think he requires, nor
25
deserves any type of protection or -- from me in any
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way, to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do.  So
2
there's that.
3
           However, the man I met and the man he
4
became, I believe that there is a progression, and I
5
don't think that the man I met is the man that he
6
became.  I believe he became that man over a period
7
of time.
8
           Now we can discuss anything you want and
9
I'll tell you everything I know, but I think somebody
10
who has an interest, however you define that, in
11
underage people is obviously someone who is unwell.
12
But I don't think that you wake up one day and you
13
start doing what he's accused of.  I think this is
14
something that you develop or you progress to.  I --
15
I think, because --
16
           DAVID MARKUS:  Ghislaine, before -- before
17
you get into all that, let's answer the top line
18
question and then get into it.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  The top line
20
question is?
21
           DAVID MARKUS:  Did you ever see any of
22
these people with underage women?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No -- no.  I -- so the
24
reason I'm saying that is not -- is not to avoid that
25
question, but it's because by the time, when you were
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talking in the '90s, I don't think he was there.
2
I -- there's that description.  I think that this,
3
what you were talking about is a later version.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  And --
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Does that -- is that?
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  No.  I understand that and
7
I do want to talk -- I'm not --
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So it's just I'm -- I
9
think you need to separate the periods of time --
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Sure.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- because it --
12
this -- one of the things that was definitely missing
13
in my trial, and definitely missing from the
14
narrative, is this notion, this, everything happened
15
and he was always but -- no.  I don't -- I don't
16
believe that to be true.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  So I mean, that --
18
that's -- that's fine.  And I do want to talk about
19
that.  I'm not -- I'm not pushing that away.  I'm
20
just putting it aside for a moment.
21
           What Mr. Epstein did and -- and, frankly,
22
what -- what you did, or are accused of doing, is one
23
thing that I -- that we'll talk about, but what --
24
right now what I want to understand is -- is whether
25
one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his
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clients or -- or took care of them, or some would say
2
blackmail them, was by encouraging them to have -- to
3
interact with -- with women, underage or not.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I think in the
5
'90s, he may have encouraged them, but these were
6
people who were in their 20s or 30s.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  So -- so.  Understand that.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  May have -- so he
9
would have a masseuse, right?  And he did, male and
10
female, by the way, in the '90s, that's never been
11
discussed.  Both in yoga and everything, there were
12
men as well as women.
13
           And so if he would travel, and I can show
14
them to you, I highlighted them on the flight record,
15
so you could see that there really were men that were
16
also there.  He would say, would you like to do yoga
17
with Tito?  Or would you like a massage with this
18
one?  But they would be in their late 20s and
19
professional masseuses.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  So --
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I think there's a
22
distinction.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  And I want to talk about
24
actual individuals here.  But -- and I understand the
25
distinction between somebody who's an adult and --
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and -- and someone who's underage.
2
           But even with somebody who's an adult, did
3
you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that,
4
whether it's a client or somebody else?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So with a -- with a --
6
I certainly witnessed him.  So if you were staying
7
with him and you had a massage that -- he would often
8
travel with a masseuse.  He would say, hey, would you
9
like a massage?  And he did do that, yes.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  But would you or him or
11
anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards,
12
to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual
13
contact?
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I never did, no.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  So meaning -- and then
16
coming back to the blackmail issue.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, yeah.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  There's nothing wrong with
19
getting a massage, Of course not.  Especially, you
20
know, especially if somebody's obviously an adult, a
21
masseuse.  There's -- I'm not quibbling with that.
22
           But my question is that there's a lot of
23
accusations that -- that one of the way Mr. Maxwell,
24
I'm sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful, was -- was
25
through this idea of blackmail.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I never --
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  And yes, young -- young
3
women and -- and is a crime.  Children are -- is a
4
crime.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  But even women over the age
7
of 18, if -- if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or
8
whomever to get massages and have inappropriate
9
sexual contact with the masseuses, that's -- that's a
10
separate issue.  Maybe -- maybe slightly nuanced, but
11
did you ever know him to do that?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  I never did
13
absolutely myself.  I never heard him ask someone.  I
14
never -- I never heard that.  I never -- no one -- in
15
the entire time I was with him or friends with him,
16
or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to
17
me and said that anything inappropriate happened or
18
was upset by -- I never saw a tear.  I never saw ever
19
any of that.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  And when you say, "No one
21
reported to me," meaning like the masseuses --
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- or any of the house
24
staff --
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never.
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           DAVID MARKUS:  Or the clients.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- or the clients
3
themselves?
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So -- so let's --
6
again, I want to stay -- and -- and coming back now
7
to what you were talking about a moment ago with
8
Mr. Epstein's kind of progression or -- or -- or
9
getting worse.  So just staying within the '90s.
10
           What role -- what did -- what role did you
11
have or what did you observe -- which are two
12
different issues, but both important -- with respect
13
to recruiting masseuses to come to either, I guess,
14
Palm Beach or to travel, or eventually New Mexico.
15
What role did you have in that?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He asked me to find
17
masseuses for him.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Say it again.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He asked me if I could
20
find him masseuses.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Like, as part of --
22
like you said, you were his general manager.  As part
23
of all your -- your duties, that was one of them?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And I did do that.  So
25
the first person I believe that I introduced him to
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as a masseuse was somebody called 
.  She
2
was, I don't know, mid, late 20s.  Professional
3
masseuse.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  And was this something that
5
happened early on in your relationship or -- and
6
again, I know we're talking about the '90s, but are
7
we talking about early '90s or is this later on?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So in terms of
9
massage, I am a -- I have a lot of injuries.  I do a
10
lot of dangerous sports and have had multiple serious
11
accidents, and walk without any lameness, because of
12
physical therapy and massage.  I've -- that to me is
13
a very -- it's medicinal for me.
14
           So Epstein, whatever his massage
15
situation, whatever -- he loved massage.  And if I
16
met somebody who I thought was a good masseuse or
17
masseur, I introduced them.
18
           And he -- because I got them, and he asked
19
me if I did, and I said yes.  And that's -- I'm
20
pretty sure that would've -- well, I don't remember.
21
'93, '92, from the beginning.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  So -- so go ahead.  So then
23
what happens over the next, you know, like there's
24
been -- there's a ton of writing and a ton of, I
25
guess, testimony as well, but also public reporting,
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about how the recruiting was a very aggressive effort
2
that you were a part of, that he was a part of, and
3
others, to try to find more and more masseuses.
4
           What -- is that -- is that true, and what
5
role did you have in that?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That was partially
7
true.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So it is true that I
10
found masseuses and he became more insistent.  He --
11
he -- he liked new all the time.  He got bored.  So
12
he would be bored with a masseuse and he would say,
13
find me a new masseuse.
14
           I am the entire opposite.  If I find
15
someone that I like, I stay with them.  I'm like, I
16
don't want new.  He would drive for new.  So that is
17
true.
18
           And in my effort to find them, I would go
19
to massage spas, like legitimate spas.  Not -- we're
20
not talking, you know, funky ones that people have.
21
           So -- and I -- if I got a massage from
22
somebody in a spa, that was -- I liked -- I liked, I
23
asked them if they would do home visits.  If they
24
said yes, I would ask them to come to the house and
25
he would see if he liked them or not.  But these were
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people who worked in spas.  I never, ever checked
2
their age and I never checked their credentials.  I
3
never asked for a certificate.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  What --
5
           DAVID MARKUS:  But just to be clear, you
6
never thought anybody was under 18?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I never crossed -- I
8
never -- no.  That was never my -- that was never a
9
drive.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  What -- what did you know
11
at the time about him, Mr. Epstein, requiring
12
masseuses to be naked or requiring masseuses to
13
either perform sexual favors for Mr. Epstein or to be
14
there if Mr. Epstein masturbated or things like that.
15
           And again, I'm asking you about a 15-year
16
period or whatever, 10-year period.  So I appreciate,
17
it's a very broad question.  So answer it in a way
18
that, you know, addresses what you've been charged
19
with doing, but also what's been said about you.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  So I don't --
21
the '90s, I don't think that I ever thought -- that
22
never would cross my mind.  I'm not sure that I
23
thought about that in those contexts at all, until
24
his arrest and those papers came out.  But I believe
25
the -- the subject of the -- the question that you're
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asking me, I believe started in the 2000s.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  In the 2000 time period?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah.  2000.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Why do you -- why do you
5
think --
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  2000.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Like what -- what in your
8
mind makes you think that that's the time that it
9
started?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think because in
11
December of 2001, he met 
  And I
12
think 
 was responsible for that in
13
its entirety.
14
           And the reason I believe that, so this --
15
she -- she was a self-confessed having been sexually
16
abused as a young girl, and was trained -- her words
17
I'm quoting now, not mine, in all the arts of
18
whatever that is, the sex program by a man called Ron
19
Eppinger, who was her pimp from when she was 14, I
20
believe, or 15, I don't know.
21
           And in her book describes him training her
22
to be what every man wants in all its manners,
23
fellatio and everything else.  I believe that then
24
what happened was that he met her, and she came as a
25
masseuse to his house, in December of 2001 is when I
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think it started.
2
           Now, what their relationship was or what
3
happened with them in that early period of time, I
4
cannot say.  What I can say is that he liked her and
5
she started to travel with him at that time period.
6
           I believe -- I know, then, what happened
7
was that she -- when she first started to see him or
8
first came into his orbit as his masseuse or
9
whatever, she was engaged to be married and wearing
10
an engagement ring, and was living with her fianc?.
11
           She broke up after a few months, with her
12
fianc?, and took up with the local drug dealer.  So
13
let's say after four or five months of -- in the time
14
period when she was seeing Epstein, let's say we're
15
now May, June of 2002 or is it 2000.  I can't
16
remember.
17
           From whenever she hits the -- whatever
18
that is if that's 2000.  I think it's 2000.  I'm
19
sorry.  I think it's when she met him.  December of
20
2000.  So -- so then you go through -- I don't
21
remember.  You'll have to look.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  I'm not holding you
23
to exact dates.  I'm not --
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  I mean, I'm just
25
trying to -- I'm giving the --
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           TODD BLANCHE:  -- I appreciate.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So then I think -- so
3
she -- she takes up with the local drug dealer and
4
she becomes druggie, druggie.  Like, you know, how
5
druggies -- well, maybe you don't.  I live with a lot
6
in Tallahassee.  They become even more unreliable
7
than normal.
8
           And at some point, she's now working
9
somewhere else.  He stopped seeing her, because he
10
doesn't like people who do drugs.  And I think that
11
not seeing her lasted five or six months.  And in
12
that period of time, she got arrested for theft, and
13
she had a warrant out for her arrest.
14
           Now, this I've pieced together because
15
this piece I didn't know.  She then called Epstein
16
to -- to have help avoiding the warrant for her
17
arrest, and he sent her to Thailand to get a massage
18
therapy license.  This is the bit that I guess.  This
19
is the bit that I extrapolated.
20
           In the period of time from when she came
21
back to when she left, he asked her to replace
22
herself as his masseuse or whatever -- whatever she
23
was doing, and she brought the first replacement for
24
her.  That would've been one of the accusers in my
25
case, I think, would've been 
.
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           And that -- and then everyone who came
2
subsequent to 
 or simultaneously, if she
3
wasn't the first, I don't know.  Everyone -- every
4
single person who came to his house, came through
5
 and her boyfriend, Tony, and then whoever
6
else underneath her.  And that is how it started.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  So before her --
8
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  Tony Figueroa.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Tony Figueroa is her
10
boyfriend.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Before her -- so now going
12
back in the '90s.  You don't believe that Mr. Epstein
13
was abusing masseuses?
14
           DAVID MARKUS:  Underage?
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Or over age?  I mean, I
16
think -- well, I'm using abuse in the broadest sense
17
of word, because I'm assuming that you -- you --
18
you -- you -- you -- you said that you have no idea
19
of the year -- you-- you always assumed the masseuses
20
were over age, right?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I did.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  So when I'm talking about
23
abuse, I'm even talking about an adult masseuse who
24
comes in to give a massage and is told to take off
25
their clothes, told they're not going to get paid if
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they don't take off their clothes.  Basically
2
suggested they had to watch him masturbate.  Like the
3
things that have been publicly said about what he
4
did.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm not --
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  For now I'm not -- I'm not
7
distinguishing adults or -- or -- or young or
8
underage women for that.  I'm saying abuse.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm -- I'm going to
10
think that that would've been a habit.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm going to say that
13
the massage game was a habit.  And I think --
14
           DAVID MARKUS:  What does that mean?
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That means that I'm
16
sure that he didn't suddenly start having relations
17
with masseuses in 2002.
18
           DAVID MARKUS:  Okay.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I am sure he must have
20
had relations with masseuses, who knows when.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  But you're saying, as far
22
as you -- I -- I used the word abuse.  You're saying
23
that as far as you sit here today, you would describe
24
that more as consensual?  Meaning the masseuse did
25
those -- did this willingly?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- I saw him with
2
lots of masseuses.  I never saw a single masseuse
3
ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever.  So
4
based on my observation, I don't think that if you
5
are being raped, as now he's like this prolific -- I
6
just -- I just can't imagine why you would return.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  That's not what you
8
observed at the time?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Not what I observed at
10
the time, no.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  I want to -- we're -- we're
12
going to spend a little -- we're going to spend more
13
time on this issue, because I -- I think it's
14
important.  But just going back to kind of the -- the
15
question that I started with in this area, which is
16
that it ties into the blackmail issue.
17
           So we talked about people that were his
18
clients, and you've mentioned President Clinton, and
19
then early on --
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, I never said he
21
was a client.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  I -- I did not say you
23
said.  I'm saying when you talk about his clients.
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, okay.  Right.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  And puts his clients
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off the side.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  And then you mentioned some
4
other people.  You mentioned President Clinton --
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- you mentioned President
7
Trump early on.
8
           Who were other famous/politicians, who
9
were other individuals in Mr. Epstein's life during
10
that time period?  So the early '90s --
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  It was the '90s.
12
Let's -- should we just --
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yes.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  Congressman
15
McMillen.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Say it again.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  McMillen.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Henry Rosovsky, who
20
was the provost of Harvard.  Hang on (Indiscernible).
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Sure.  You're looking at
22
your -- your -- your notes.
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Go ahead.  Go ahead.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Joe Pagano, Jerry
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Goldsmith, Joe Roberts, Kenny Lipper, Dan Abramson.
2
           I don't know if in the '90s Tom Pritzker,
3
Ace, Jimmy Cayne, Lou Ranieri.  I mean, there were --
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  What about the royal
5
family?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  He didn't know
7
them in the '90s.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  What about the -- the --
9
what about Prince Andrew?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Didn't know him in the
11
'90s.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  When did --
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, well -- is that
14
right?
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  I wouldn't know.  I do not
16
know.  So I don't want you to have -- to worry about
17
exact dates.  You're -- you're not positive about
18
that.  But you don't have a specific recollection of
19
that being in the '90s?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- I can -- I can
23
date it for you, I think, but I can't give you --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  That's okay.  I think
25
that's fine.
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           So with respect to just -- and we'll --
2
we'll take a break in a minute to get some food.  But
3
just with respect to Mr. -- with respect to the
4
individuals you just talked about.  So again, focus
5
on the '90s.
6
           And so the people that I'm talking about
7
right now, and we might add some names later.  So
8
we're talking about the -- the clients that he worked
9
with, which you've mentioned several of.  And I know
10
that that wasn't exhaustive, but you mentioned
11
several of them.
12
           And then the -- the kind of what -- what I
13
called famous friends, but the -- the prominent
14
individuals that were in his life in the '90s.
15
Did -- did -- does any stick out in your mind as
16
having received massages?  All of them.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Henry Rosovsky
18
received a massage.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  And why do you -- why does
20
that stick out in your memory?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Because I saw him in a
22
bathrobe at 71st Street, and he had received a
23
massage, he told me.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  And do you know whether
25
that -- whether there was any -- whether the masseuse
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was naked during that massage?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I wouldn't have any
3
idea.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know whether he --
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I doubt it.  He was
6
like in his 80s.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Say it again.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I doubt it.  He was
9
like in his 80s.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So -- but do you
11
know -- notwithstanding his age --
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Minsky, sorry.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Say that again.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Minsky was another
15
person.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know whether, for
17
example, President Clinton ever received a massage?
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't believe he
19
did.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  And what makes you say you
21
don't believe he did?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, because I
23
don't -- so that's a good question.  The time that
24
Epstein and President Clinton spent together, the
25
only times I believe -- well, obviously they
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traveled.  There was that, you know, the plane, they
2
went on the plane 26 times or whatever.  That would
3
be one journey.
4
           So they spent time on the plane together,
5
and I don't believe there was ever a massage on the
6
plane.  So that would've been the only time that I
7
think that President Clinton could have even received
8
a massage.  And he didn't, because I was there.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  And you mentioned that
10
early -- in the very beginning of the conversation,
11
you mentioned President Trump in the early '90s.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  What -- what's -- what did
14
you observe, as far as President Trump, and his
15
relationship with you or Mr. Epstein?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, I just want to
17
say for my relationship with President Trump --
18
relationship's a big word -- but I just want to say
19
that I met him or I believe I may have, because of my
20
father in the '90s.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yep.  Okay.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So my father liked him
23
very much, and he was loved -- really liked his wife
24
as well, because we were both Czechoslovakian.
25
           And as far as I'm concerned, President
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Trump was always very cordial and very kind to me.
2
And I just want to say that I find -- I -- I admire
3
his extraordinary achievement in becoming the
4
President now.  And I like him, and I've always liked
5
him.  So that is the sum and substance of my entire
6
relationship with him.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  What about Mr. Epstein's
8
relationship with him?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't know how they
10
met, and I don't know how they became friends.  I
11
certainly saw them together and I remember the few
12
times I observed them together, but they were
13
friendly.  I mean, they seemed friendly.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Was that in social settings
15
or was that in private settings?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I believe I only ever
17
saw them in social settings.  I don't recall any
18
private settings.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever -- have you
20
ever been to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I have.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  In what time period are you
23
thinking about when you say yes?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't remember when
25
the President purchased Mar-a-Lago.  So from whenever
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it turned into the club, I went there and I was --
2
loved going there.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you -- did you go there
4
alone or with Mr. Epstein?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Mostly alone.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know where --
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And the times I went
8
there it was for an event, maybe once or twice.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  And do you know whether
10
Mr. Epstein ever went there?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- I believe he did,
12
but again, we really were -- he -- he didn't take me
13
with him all the time.  So he would go and -- oh,
14
right.  He never -- I never -- well, he did from time
15
to time, but he would go alone.  I think he would
16
maybe go himself to the spa.  I certainly did.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever observe
18
President Trump receive a massage?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever observe -- you
21
said that you -- you were -- I mean, have you seen
22
the -- there's photographs, public photographs of
23
Mr. Epstein and President Trump together.
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  And there's photographs
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of -- I think you're -- you're in some of the
2
photographs --
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- as well.  Those all
5
appear to be social settings.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you --
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's -- that's my
9
memory.  They were social settings.  I don't know
10
Epstein's -- if he had -- whatever the nature of the
11
President's friendship, if you will, or however you
12
want to define that with Epstein, I was -- never
13
witnessed.
14
           I think they were friendly like people are
15
in social settings.  I don't -- I don't think they
16
were close friends or I certainly never witnessed the
17
President in any of -- I don't recall ever seeing him
18
in his house, for instance.
19
           I actually never saw the President in any
20
type of massage setting.  I never witnessed the
21
President in any inappropriate setting in any way.
22
The President was never inappropriate with anybody.
23
In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman
24
in all respects.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  When's the last time you
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think you saw, in person, President Trump?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Um, it was -- it's --
3
it's been a long time.  Probably not -- sometime in
4
the -- beginning -- mid -- mid 2000s maybe.  And it
5
would only have been a social setting, as far as I
6
recall.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  And did you ever hear
8
Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had
9
done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with
10
anybody in your world?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely never, in
12
any context.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know whether
14
masseuses from Mar-a-Lago's spa ended up giving
15
massages to -- private massages to Mr. Epstein?  I'm
16
not asking for what you may have read, but from -- at
17
the time, from your personal knowledge, do you know
18
whether that's true?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- I don't -- I
20
don't recall.  Is it possible?  Yes.  But I don't
21
remember -- I don't remember that.  So I don't want
22
to -- I don't recall that, but it's possible.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you have a recollection
24
of you ever recruiting a masseuse from Mar-a-Lago spa
25
to give -- to go give a private massage to
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Mr. Epstein?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I've never recruited a
3
masseuse from Mar-a-Lago for that, as far as I
4
remember.  I can't ever recollect doing that.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So what -- what I
6
think we should do now, it's about 12:15.  We'll take
7
a -- we'll take a break and we will come back in a
8
little bit.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
11
           (Break at 12:15 p.m. to 12:59 p.m.)
12
           SPENCER HORN:  Good afternoon.  We are
13
continuing the recorded proffer interview of
14
Ms. Maxwell.  The time is 12:59, Thursday, July 24th.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So just to continue
16
what we're talking about, Ms. Maxwell, still focused
17
on the '90s time period with -- understanding that
18
could spill over in the early 2000s.  But still that
19
part of your -- of your life with Mr. Epstein.
20
           There's been public reporting about
21
conduct by Mr. Epstein and others at Little Saint
22
James.
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  So can you talk about the
25
frequency with which you went there, and address some
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of those -- some of the reporting, namely around
2
young masseuses or young women who would be present
3
and what you observed --
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- relating to them, and
6
then I'll ask questions around that.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So if I'm right, he
8
purchased the island in 1996 and he was friendly with
9
the owners.  And originally, we went to the island as
10
guests of the owners.  And then I guess at some point
11
the owners told him -- he -- they wanted to sell and
12
he decided to purchase it.
13
           So the island was very rustic.  I loved
14
it.  He, of course, had completely different ideas.
15
And I would say there was none of what you were
16
describing at that early period of time.
17
           So the frequency was -- was often.  We're
18
often on the island, because he loved it.  He really,
19
really loved it.  And we would, -- we would go all
20
the time.  Mostly all the early phase was based on
21
improvements that could be made on the island.
22
           Always going with new architects, new
23
designers, new construction people.  I'd say the
24
first two years, almost every trip, not every one,
25
but almost every trip contained some -- an individual
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who would be brought on board to have an opinion as
2
to how to -- I don't want to use the word "improve
3
the island," because I don't think you could improve
4
it, but to -- I can't think what the word would be.
5
To -- what's the word I'm looking for?  To develop
6
it.  Sorry.  That's the word.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Develop -- develop the
9
island.  That's the word I'm looking for.
10
           So -- so there were trips, constant trips
11
with that in mind.  And I would say now if we are
12
moving to the late '90s, '96, '97 I definitely
13
witnessed a progression in Mr. Epstein's behavior,
14
and a modification, if you will.
15
           Where in the past, in the early '90s, I
16
don't remember traveling so much with other people.
17
There would be a masseuse or a yoga person, but now
18
he started to travel with more, always a masseuse.
19
Whereas in the past it wasn't always a masseuse or
20
always an instructor.  There was now starting to be
21
always an individual or a friend or whatever.
22
           There's always a, like, maybe the word
23
would be entourage, but these were always people in
24
their 20s, late 20s, early 30s in my -- as my memory
25
sees it, as I -- as I observe that time.
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           And he tasked me with finding a local
2
masseuse for him in St. Thomas, because sometimes,
3
even though I say he would always travel with an
4
entourage, sometimes he didn't, and he wanted to have
5
a massage locally.
6
           So I visited the mass- -- the spas that
7
were local in St. Thomas and in St. John.  And if I
8
met someone, a man or a woman, actually, because it
9
was difficult to find somebody in St. Thomas, it's
10
not exactly, you know.  So, and I did find a couple
11
of people who would come.
12
           So that's how they came, because also it
13
was a schlep.  So if you had somebody who came, it
14
would be -- you would have to, you know, boat ride
15
and you -- several hours.  It wasn't just a -- it's
16
not like arriving with your massage table and stuff.
17
So there was that.  So I did do that.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  So did, over the years,
19
males also give massages to Mr. Epstein?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.  I did say, I
21
don't think -- at the beginning, definitely.  And I
22
would say towards sort of, again, late '90s, I don't
23
remember any men.  They were at the beginning, I
24
think in that -- towards the late '90s, I cannot
25
think of any men.  I only think of women.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you -- well, you talk
2
about entourage flying, right now we're talking about
3
to the island.  Did you observe any sexual, I was
4
going to say misconduct, but any sexual -- any sex at
5
all whatsoever on the plane?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never on the plane,
7
no.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Was there a part of the
9
plane that was closed off from others where
10
Mr. Epstein could go and get a massage or whatever?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah.  Okay.  So
12
that's a good question.  So there were two planes.
13
So you had the -- there was a Gulfstream, and that's
14
open plan.  So anything -- I mean, there was a sofa
15
that turned into a bed.  And he did sleep on that.
16
           And then -- but in the Boeing, which he
17
flew on a lot, there was -- his area could be closed
18
off with a door.  And behind that door there would
19
be -- there was a bedroom and an office.  So if that
20
door was shut, you wouldn't see it.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  But do you -- so if you
22
never -- so -- but you never observed Mr. Epstein
23
engaging in sex or getting a massage with somebody --
24
with whether the masseuse was not clothed on the
25
plane?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I can't say that.  I
2
might have --
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- I definitely might,
5
either both in the Gulfstream or in the --
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- in the -- I'm sure
8
I did, but it's not -- I can't --
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  That's fair.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  I'm absolutely
11
sure I did.  I must have, because, you know, he was
12
so obsessed of someone rubbing his feet or -- just --
13
when you ask me about massages, I want to be clear.
14
           I generally -- what I think of that is
15
somebody on a massage table, but other people might
16
think of it as something different.  You know, you
17
could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder.
18
I saw that all the time.  That I did.  But sep- --
19
that's separate from being on a massage table.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  How -- again, I know we're
21
talking about a decade-long period, but during the
22
period we're talking about, in a seven-day week, how
23
often would Mr. Epstein get a massage?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  In the '90s, when
25
we're talking, he would get one every day.  I think,
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as that time progressed, he would get one, maybe
2
twice a day.  I do want to say that there was maybe a
3
reason that things altered or morphed or progressed,
4
and it is maybe part of the reason, also, that I --
5
he and I, our relationship or have a, somebody wants
6
to call it altered.
7
           And he started doing testosterone and that
8
altered his character.  And I believe that started in
9
the late '90s.  And I believe that the FBI has his
10
medical records and you may see that on his medical
11
records.  Yes.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  So you believe that he
13
started taking testosterone in the '90s, and when you
14
say that altered his behavior, you're saying it
15
wanted to -- made him get more massages or that was
16
just one part of what changed about him?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, he became more
18
aggressive.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  I see.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And I think that he
21
maybe -- well, now I'm just imagining that the
22
testosterone altered his desires or something, does
23
that --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  And so when, given what
25
you've said the past couple hours about his kind of
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progression or change, let's focus on that time
2
period, so the more towards the late '90s.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  The testosterone.
4
Yeah, okay.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  So '96, '97, '98, you know,
6
toward --
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- when you've said that he
9
changed.  Did you know flat out that he was having
10
sex or otherwise some sort of sexual conduct with
11
masseuses regularly?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Flat out?  No, I
13
denied that.  I couldn't imagine that he would but I
14
think looking back now, that -- I did not.  But I
15
started to suspect that he was not faithful.  Seems
16
ludicrous but that's what I thought.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  But if -- look, if -- if
18
he's flying from Palm Beach to -- to St. Thomas or if
19
he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to
20
New York, or even in Palm Beach and there's young
21
women, putting aside whether they're under the age of
22
18 or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple
23
masseuses -- multiple massages on some days, you're
24
interacting with the masseuses constantly.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Huh?
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Or maybe that's not right.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's not right.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Let me take back what I
4
just said.  Ignore that part.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  But you understand that he
7
is getting massages every day, sometimes multiple
8
times a day.  The -- by the late '90s, it's all
9
women, presumably they're -- some of them are new,
10
but they're also repeat masseuses.
11
           What did you -- I mean, you had to know at
12
that point that there was something going on beyond
13
just, he really needed to get massaged.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  So -- very fair
15
question.  There's two things.  The first is the
16
person that he saw the most at that period of time
17
was in her 40s.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And she was with him
20
all the time.  And I'm, like, married as well --
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And as -- I'm square.
23
And it never occurred -- well, I don't believe it
24
occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he
25
would be having relations.  And he was with her --
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that was the person he had the most massages, yoga,
2
and that -- with -- at that time in the '90s period.
3
           The second thing is that -- is he told me
4
he didn't -- he had difficulty having an erection,
5
and I believed him.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  When you said he said that,
7
you mean he regularly told you that?  Like he --
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  When I first --
9
because when I didn't have sex with him after the
10
first time, and it took -- so I asked him, was it me?
11
And he told me it was him.
12
           And I had never, up until this moment in
13
my life, I -- as if I'm not stupid.  I'm very bright.
14
I've had an excellent education.  I traveled all over
15
the world.  I had had boyfriends, but I had never met
16
or understood that somebody could be so -- would lie
17
to me about -- I could -- it never occurred to me.
18
           I didn't have a frame of context within my
19
life experience where somebody would be so
20
manipulative and devious with me.  I just -- and
21
plus, I just didn't have -- I just -- and I was happy
22
not to have sex, because I have a condition that
23
doesn't lend itself to that.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Does -- when you learned --
25
so fast forward just for a moment to the 2007, '08,
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'09 time period and he's arrested and charged and
2
there's all kinds of press around his purported
3
contact, at that point -- at that point, did you
4
accept that that was true?  Meaning, did it make
5
sense at that point?
6
           When you were reading about women who
7
claimed that they had been abused, even underage
8
and -- at that point, did you think to yourself,
9
well, geez, that makes sense now that I think about
10
it or no?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  First of all, I
12
didn't -- that's -- I only read what was in the
13
newspapers.  I didn't have any other thing.  And I'm
14
embarrassed to say it, I didn't -- I didn't believe
15
it.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Right.  I mean, you
17
didn't believe that the accusations were true at the
18
time.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  So let's --
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And sorry, I need to
22
say, even if they were true, I believe that he was
23
duped and he didn't know that they were -- whatever
24
that was in the papers at that time, whether they
25
said that they were 17 or, I didn't -- it didn't
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register, because --
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- along with all of
4
those -- well, not in 2006, but later when the more
5
salacious and other allegations came out, I knew were
6
utterly false, which then just reinforced my belief
7
that the rest was not true.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Let me ask you a question
9
about the age of the masseuses over the years.  It --
10
I think in my mind, there's a difference between you
11
knowing or not knowing that a masseuse is under the
12
age of 18 and coming to give a massage, and you
13
knowing that Mr. Epstein, you know, sexually abused
14
the underage person or made her strip or something
15
like that, meaning -- and I want to understand
16
whether you believe that nobody that came to give
17
massages, none of the women were under 18 or that you
18
didn't focus on their age, but you -- you were more
19
focused on whether any underage woman was abused by
20
him.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think it's better to
22
answer this question with corroborating evidence and
23
then go back and explain, so that I frame --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- your understanding
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of what I'm saying.  Of the -- my understanding is
2
that in 2000 and, let's say 2008, they had
3
interviewed 44 women, let's say, or around that
4
number.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  You have to
7
understand, not a single one of those 44 women
8
mentioned me in a single report.  And it's not
9
because -- go back.
10
           They didn't mention me in their report
11
because they never met me, they never saw me, and
12
they never interacted with me.  So to go back to your
13
question, it's not that I thought one way or another,
14
it's that I didn't see them.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  I see.  Okay.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Does that --
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah, no, that's helpful.
18
So --
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm not -- and but
20
when I say not one, not single one of those reports
21
talked about me.  And I just want to clarify exactly,
22
because I'm obviously aware that one of those girls
23
is -- was one of the witnesses in my trial,
24
specifically 
.
25
           To use her own testimony so that you don't
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have to --
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- hear my point of
4
view.  It's better if it comes from her own words and
5
that way there's no second-guessing whether -- what
6
I'm saying.
7
           
 herself said that 
8
recruited her, 
 brought her and 
9
trained her.  Those are 
 own words.
10
           Where was I going with this?
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  That you were -- that you
12
didn't know.  I mean, I assume you were saying that
13
you weren't --
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh yeah, sorry, sorry,
15
sorry, sorry.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  That's okay --
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm trying to remember
18
where I was.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- that's all right.  It's
20
okay.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I really do have some
22
slow cognition issues.
23
           The --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  So she says -- she
25
testifies that it was 
 that recruited her
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and trained her and not you.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So wait.  So then in
3
her first FBI meeting, she reports seeing a woman
4
with short dark hair at the house, which then is used
5
as evidence that that person was myself.
6
           But the maid, lady that who helped keep
7
the house, John Alessi's wife -- oh, and with an
8
accent, I believe she said.
9
           John Alessi's wife had short, dark hair
10
and an accent.  I'm sorry, but I find -- and you can
11
ask yourselves this, I mean, I've obviously modified
12
my accent.  I've been in America a long time, but I'm
13
British.  I've been brought up with a very strong
14
British accent.
15
           And I don't believe there's an American on
16
planet Earth that doesn't recognize this to be
17
British or Australian, maybe, if you really don't
18
know.  But it's not some random accent.
19
           Now the Hispanic, maybe.  Okay.  That was
20
John's wife that she saw, not me.  And I'd like to
21
point out further how you -- potentially her own --
22
through her own words.  She identify --
23
           DAVID MARKUS:  Why don't we -- why don't
24
we --
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
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           DAVID MARKUS:  -- stop there and let him
2
ask the next question.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  You're good.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  So it's -- so just -- and
7
look, I want to -- I want to try to -- I think
8
probably tomorrow we will -- I want to talk more
9
about kind of the evidence against you and how to
10
address that.  So --
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  Sorry.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  No, don't apologize.
13
That's -- so that's helpful but --
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- I don't want you to be
16
burdened.  I want you to just tell the truth the best
17
you can, so I don't want you to be burdened by what
18
people said at trial or what you know the press says
19
about you, so --
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I just thought it was
21
illustrative when you asked the question --
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  And it was.  It was.
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- because it
24
doesn't -- I did not -- I absolutely have no memory
25
at any -- now I'm leaving 
 separate
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to this obviously --
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- so that's a
4
separate story.  I'm not going to pretend -- well,
5
we'll come to her.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  We'll get to her.  Go
7
ahead.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes, she -- but in the
9
terms of the scheme or whatever, however you want to
10
determine what you're calling that, I have no -- no
11
memory, no active anything of having seen anybody
12
that resembles a young -- a child, let's call it what
13
it is, at that house giving him a massage at all.
14
           It's not even like I did this.  It's an at
15
all.  And 44 people didn't see me or talk about me
16
either, including 
.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did -- and when you say
18
"that house," I --
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, sorry.
20
Palm Beach.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah, no, I understand what
22
you mean but, and I -- does the same memory or lack
23
thereof, apply to on planes, at -- in New Mexico, in
24
New York, in --
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, with some other
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important caveats.  Well, on that -- but Julian --
2
Jane, in my trial, was clearly underage, clearly a
3
child.  And I only saw her in Palm Beach and I only
4
saw her with her mother.
5
           The other person who's clearly also not an
6
adult or even close, 
, I believe, I
7
remember her now.  That would be the only two or
8
three, whatever that is.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  So did you ever know
10
Mr. Epstein to communicate with FBI agents, either
11
like intelligence FBI agents, like as a source or
12
just generally with FBI agents?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you think if he had done
15
that, you would've known, like he would've told you
16
something like that?  Like if I said to you,
17
Mr. Epstein was a source for the FBI, would you say,
18
that's crazy, no, he wasn't or maybe he was, I
19
would -- he wouldn't have told me that anyway.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I have two answers for
21
that.  I think if he was for real, I think he
22
would've bragged about it to me as a show off,
23
because he could be a show off.  And if he wasn't, he
24
might have dropped it like he was cool.  And I don't
25
think -- I don't remember him doing either.
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           Now, with, again, the caveat that in
2
his -- before I met him finding money, I think he may
3
have suggested that there was some people who helped
4
him, but that's the only context that I recall that
5
in.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  What do you mean by that?
7
When you said "finding money," what do you mean?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, his business
9
where he -- remember I told you --
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- I think in that
12
context, he made -- he showed me a photograph that he
13
had with some African warlords or something that he
14
told me.  And, you know, I get -- I don't remember if
15
I -- that's what I interpreted the -- like that kind
16
of thing or whether it was something like that.
17
           That's the only actual active memory I
18
have of something nefarious -- not nefarious.  I
19
don't even know if it was nefarious, but covert, I
20
suppose would be the word.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  And what about any other
22
intelligence agency, like the CIA or Defense
23
Intelligence or any other law enforcement agency?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  I don't think
25
so.  I think that -- I don't remember anything like
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that.  I just don't think he had the wherewithal and
2
I think that whole aspect of that is -- can I use a
3
bad word?
4
           DAVID MARKUS:  Yes.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yes.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Bullshit.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  And what do you --
8
you think it's bullshit, meaning?  What do you mean?
9
           DAVID MARKUS:  Would you have known if he
10
was -- would he have been bragging to you?  Would he
11
have been saying these things.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think he was because
13
I -- I think, well, sorry.  I think that -- I think
14
one of the reasons why he liked me was because of my,
15
you know, my family connections and why he liked
16
other people was because they were cool or whatever.
17
           And I think that, certainly, early in when
18
I met him, he would've tried to impress me or tried
19
to show off, if you will.  Like he was that guy, you
20
know, and he wasn't that guy.  And so -- and I think
21
that he would've tried to bullshit me and he didn't,
22
so I think it's --
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did --
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, he may have
25
tried to bullshit me, but no, I couldn't.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Right.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  So I want to just shift for
4
a few minutes to talk about post-2000.  2000 to kind
5
of when your relationship changed over the years with
6
him.
7
           Did there come a time when he,
8
Mr. Epstein, did meet members of the Royal Family?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  When was that?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I need to go back,
12
because I think I may have misspoke --
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- I didn't misspeak
15
but I --
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah, go ahead.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- it's something that
18
I have forgotten.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Of course.  Yeah.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Before I met Epstein,
21
he lived in London for a period of time, I don't know
22
for how long.  And he met and knew some truly fancy
23
people, like people -- high society people, that
24
included Princess Diana's best friend.  Her name was
25
Rosa Monckton.  And Rosa's husband, Dominic Lawson,
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who's a famous journalist, actually is a very well
2
known journalist.
3
           And when I -- and he had -- he was friends
4
with the Barings, Barings Bank and he had like, sort
5
of --
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  That was, you're talking
7
about --
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Before he met me.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Before, so in the --
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  '80s.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- '80s.  Okay.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.  He was dating
13
Eva Andersson, Miss Sweden, I think.  I don't know
14
when she became Miss Sweden.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So earlier when you
16
said that he met them later --
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- you think he may have
19
met some members of the Royal Family or certainly
20
British high society.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He met -- I don't know
22
about the Royal Family, but certainly high society.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And the reason why I
25
know this is because, sometime we can -- this is a
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documentable thing.  Docu -- whatever.  There's a
2
photograph that can give you the date, because I
3
don't remember what the date is of this, so there's
4
something that will peg whatever this date is.  I
5
don't remember when that is.
6
           Epstein went to London without me.  He
7
often went everywhere without me, but he was in
8
London without me, which was decently unusual because
9
London's my hometown.
10
           But anyway, he went without me.  And he
11
went to a big event in, I think it was in the --
12
anyway, it was a big event.  It's on -- it's on --
13
it's on -- it's on the news.  It's like a -- there's
14
photographs of it.  And he, I don't know if he sat
15
with Diana or he met Diana and he'd already met her.
16
I don't know, but this, I believe was organized by
17
Rosa.
18
           And so there's -- I don't know if she was
19
being set up as a date for him, maybe because she --
20
I don't want to speak bad of Diana, but -- I'm not
21
going to do that.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So that was
23
pre-meeting you.
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No, that was -- that
25
event happened when we were --
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Oh, okay.  That was
2
(Inaudible).
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- and I would --
4
sometime --
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Understood.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  - - no, it's when we
7
were --
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- I'm not going to
10
say together, but when -- how about this?  When I was
11
his employee, that's a bit better.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So now moving back
13
to the 2000s, did there come a time when Mr. Epstein
14
met Prince Andrew?
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  And others in the
17
Royal Family or just Prince Andrew as, far as you
18
know?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, so as -- as much
20
as I can piece it together, all right, first of all
21
let's just state, I did not introduce him to
22
Prince Andrew.  I did not introduce him to Prince
23
Andrew or to Sarah Ferguson.  That is a flat untruth.
24
I'll start with that.
25
           So now I'm going to tell you how he did
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actually meet him.  So I -- if you find me that
2
photograph, I can date that time when he met
3
Princess Diana at that event.  I -- and based on
4
that, I'll be able to tell you if it's pre or post
5
that event, because I haven't looked it up and I've
6
never bothered to check.
7
           So Lynn Forester, who was a client or some
8
type of client, or I think she actually tried to date
9
him or might have dated him, for the record.  She was
10
in -- do you want to ask me something?
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  No, go ahead.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  She was -- she
13
had a house or she rented a house in the Vineyard.  I
14
think it was in the Vineyard or Nantucket, I can't
15
remember now which one it was.  It was one of those.
16
It was either in Nantucket or the Vineyard, and
17
invited Epstein to go, and I believe that's when he
18
met Prince Andrew.
19
           However, I believe that before that event,
20
he had gone to the Bahamas and had hung out with
21
Sarah Ferguson.  And Sarah had called Epstein and had
22
arranged with Lynn, or I don't know.  I don't know.
23
Now I'm speculating.  Anyway, long and short, he met
24
Andrew up there.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  And I'm not holding you to
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an exact date, but when, approximately, was that?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, we can date it
3
from that picture, if you find me the picture.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  But do you know, I --
5
without looking at a photo, in your mind,
6
approximately, when was that.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I want to say it was
8
the 2000 -- no, probably 2001, 2002.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Early 2000s?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  And I think it was actually
12
Prince Andrew himself who suggested that he met
13
Jeffrey Epstein through you.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think that's true.
15
So -- well --
16
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  It's true that Andrew said
17
that.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah, no, I'm sure
19
it's true, because I -- I'm English and my close
20
friends are all close friends with Sarah and Andrew.
21
And I would not say that I was close friends with
22
Andrew before, but certainly we were friendly and
23
certainly his best friends, some of them, are very
24
close with me.
25
           And I think that my friendship, my -- me
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being present or me is what made Andrew like Jeffrey
2
more, like, trust him or I think that's the idea.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  So you don't dispute that
4
you're -- that you kind of had a role in them getting
5
together.  You're just saying you didn't say, Prince,
6
here's Jeffrey.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I would never have
8
introduced them.  It would never have occurred to me
9
to introduce them.  I couldn't imagine them being
10
friends.  Two chalk and cheeses would never -- I
11
mean, for real, there's nothing there to connect
12
them.
13
           So he met Prince Andrew and then he had a
14
really good relationship.  I don't like that word.
15
It sounds clunky.  They had a friend --
16
           DAVID MARKUS:  Acquaintanceship.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Thank you.  And --
18
through Sarah, actually.  I think Sarah is the one
19
that pushed that.  And they met and hung out, I want
20
to say two or three times that had nothing to do with
21
me.  I wasn't communicating with Andrew, I wasn't in
22
touch with him.
23
           And I know this because I was annoyed and
24
I felt left out, and I felt disrespected and I was
25
like, this is weird.  I couldn't even imagine Epstein
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and Andrew together.  And I thought that Sarah was
2
trying to put the moves on Jeffrey, if I'm being
3
honest, and I thought the whole thing was annoying
4
and I was pissed off.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  So what happened with their
6
relationship?  Putting aside the publicity around
7
Prince Andrew's purported relationship with
8
, what happened, as far as you know, with
9
Prince Andrew and Mr. Epstein's relationship, from
10
the times you just described or you give me --
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  So after that,
12
at some point Jeffrey told me -- Epstein told me that
13
Andrew was coming to New York and I needed to
14
organize the whole thing.  That's classic by the way,
15
classic Epstein.
16
           Of course, if someone -- I'm like, all
17
right, fine, whatever.  And because he wanted to make
18
sure that Andrew was taken care of and that he was
19
comfortable, he had whatever he needed, yada, yada,
20
yada.
21
           And I'm like, well, am I going to meet him
22
or are you just going to have me do all the job?  And
23
he said, well, you know, you can come and say hello.
24
Like, wow.  Well, that's so nice of you, for real.
25
           Because you have to understand, like, I
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don't know if I told you this before, but I did not
2
have the keys to his -- I was not allowed to go to
3
his house, unless I was summoned or told.  I was not
4
allowed to answer his phones.  We can go there, but
5
anyway.  So this -- you can tell there's a bit of a
6
sore point, perhaps.
7
           Anyway, so Andrew came, and of course the
8
minute we got together I was like, yay.  Hi.  And
9
then it was so nice, because the difference of being
10
in England with Prince Andrew versus being in
11
New York without all the bullshit was insane.
12
           And our friendship just like lit up like
13
this, because first of all, he knew that I'm safe.  I
14
mean safe as in I'm not, yeah, you know, Nigel
15
Dempster or taking a picture.
16
           I mean, not in a million years would I do
17
something so gross.  And we honestly got on like a
18
house on fire.  I really liked him a lot and he's --
19
it was so nice and we just became really, really good
20
friends, much more so than when we were in London, if
21
I'm honest.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  And then with respect to
23
 and Prince Andrew, what do you know about
24
that relationship?
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Would you like to ask
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that again?  Relationship is a big word.  Like I
2
said, I don't like the word.  Let's just start there.
3
Okay.
4
           So I have read -- I just want to like
5
piece together.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Well, but don't say --
7
before you say what you read, because that's one of
8
the problems is that we're all kind of --
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  All right.  What, I
10
know --
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- we're all formed by like
12
all the publicity and information around what
13
everybody else has said, but like, what do you --
14
           DAVID MARKUS:  Know.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- what do you think or
16
what did you see?  What did you hear?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  What's an even bigger
18
word than bullshit?
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Why?  Well, go ahead
20
just -- but finish that thought.  Why do you think
21
that?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm going to tell you
23
right now.  I'm so happy to tell you.  I'm like
24
excited.  I'm beyond excited.
25
           Okay.  So there's been a mixture of what
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I've actually seen and know from the evidence and
2
versus what I've put together.  Impossible for me at
3
this point to separate everything, but I'll tell you
4
what I know versus what I saw and what I physically
5
have in here, but it's helpful for you to know.
6
           So the allegation, I have to go with the
7
allegation.  The allegation was that at my house in
8
London, in March, whatever that was, 2001 I believe,
9
we went to London, especially so that 
 could
10
have a -- or 
 could have a relationship with
11
Prince Andrew and she was paid a vast amount of money
12
for that purpose.
13
           Okay.  And that she then got in the -- in
14
my bathroom in my house in London and had sex, sexual
15
relations with him and then went into my guest room
16
and had full blown sex and then left my house, or he
17
left, and she felt used and disgusting.
18
           And a photograph was taken of them just
19
before all these events took place in my study.  That
20
is what is the story.
21
           Oh, and then after that she met him
22
several other times.  But we'll come to that.  We'll
23
come -- this is where it will -- allegedly started.
24
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  And they went to Tramp.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, right.  We went to
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nightclub that night.  Oh, we went to dinner, right?
2
We went to dinner and then to Tramp.  Okay.  So the
3
first thing about that weekend, that specific
4
weekend, was it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in
5
the country.
6
           And I have some corroborating evidence for
7
that and a lot of testimonial that you can check.  So
8
that takes care of the reason why I -- one of the
9
reasons why her story doesn't hold water.
10
           The second reason why -- so -- by the way,
11
when I say that, my mum turned 80th, that actual
12
weekend was, her birthday is on March the 11th.  And
13
the reason why I went to London, and I presume, but
14
I -- this I don't remember, is why when we were -- so
15
the whole trip started because of Alberto Pinto, who
16
is the decorator for the island and for -- and for
17
New York as well.
18
           And he had wanted Epstein to go to see a
19
house in Marrakesh, if I remember rightly, and went
20
via the Alhambra, it was also for New Mexico.  So
21
there's architectural pieces that -- paint.  And that
22
was the basis of that trip.
23
           And I suspect now, that that trip was
24
planned all around the fact that I had to be in --
25
wanted to be in -- was going to be in London no
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matter what for my mum's 80th birthday at my
2
brother's house in the country, which is
3
approximately an hour outside of London, an hour and
4
a half --
5
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  An hour and a half.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- an hour and a half
7
outside of London, in my brother's home.  And we all
8
congregated on the Saturday for her birthday
9
celebration on the Sunday, and then we left.  So
10
that's that.
11
           The second reason why -- probably maybe
12
even the more important reason than my mum's
13
birthday, that I think it's absolute rubbish, is that
14
Prince Andrew.  The idea of him doing anything of
15
that nature in my house, that's the size of this
16
room, is so mind-blowingly not conceivable to me, as
17
the man or what -- I just can't -- I can't even --
18
I -- no.
19
           DAVID MARKUS:  Is there any way that it
20
could have happened?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
22
           DAVID MARKUS:  Okay.
23
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  Describe the physical plan.
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, the physical -- so
25
the -- my house was tiny.  I think it's 900 square
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feet in total.  Well, maybe that; is that right?
2
Maybe nine --
3
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  Yes.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  It is on three floors,
5
however.  So you're talking about a little -- it's a
6
jewel.  It used to be a stable for a horse.  It was
7
the stables for the big house.  It was a little poor
8
man's home behind the rich man's home.  It's a jewel.
9
           It's a -- was a gorgeous little place, but
10
it is the size of a nut.  If you make a noise, let's
11
say, a little burp or something you don't want to --
12
you'd hear it.  It just --
13
           Where she says that they had relations in
14
a bathroom, I -- first of all, the bath is an old
15
Victorian bath.  I could -- I'm quite -- quite small,
16
it's tight for me.  I put my brother in there to see
17
what would happen.  And it looks like a blivet, which
18
is a sausage in like a very tight skin.
19
           So her description of whatever the two
20
people were doing in the tub, that wouldn't work.
21
The bathroom itself is so small, you can't lie flat
22
on the floor.  So it couldn't happen on the floor,
23
because you physically, physically can't.  This
24
bathroom is too small to even be on the floor.
25
           And then the kicker of all kickers, is
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that because the bathroom was so small, I decorated
2
it to try make it look huge, which meant that I put
3
mirrors the whole way around it.  And what was so fun
4
about being in there is that if you stood in the
5
bathroom, you saw like a hundred of you, like you do
6
if you were in --
7
           DAVID MARKUS:  A fun house.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah, well, Alice in
9
Wonderland or one of those things that you would see
10
yourself going, stretching everything.  And the
11
image.  If you said you were -- let's say you were,
12
let's say that 
 was telling the truth.
13
           She could say she was having sex with
14
5,000 generations of the Royal Family, because that's
15
how far back you could see yourself.  There is no way
16
in God's green earth if that had taken place, that
17
this is something that you would miss, because it's
18
-- you couldn't miss it.
19
           If you were standing there, you'd see the
20
whole -- the FBI, the whole Department of Justice
21
standing behind you.  It's like, no.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you --
23
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  And also -- let me just --
24
also explain where the tap was in the bathtub.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, well it's an old
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Vic- had a tap.  So if you were in -- if you were in
2
the top, right, it might -- this is the tub.  My tap
3
would be here, I think -- no.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  So you think it's kind of
5
logistically and physically not something that could
6
have happened.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, there's that.
8
And there's just -- Andrew would -- he's so English.
9
He's so -- he had a tie on.
10
           DAVID MARKUS:  Do you think there's any
11
way it could have happened or no?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely on -- no
13
way -- no how, absolutely not.  Wait, I haven't
14
finished.  So on her --
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Go --
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, sorry.
17
           DAVID MARKUS:  No, go ahead.  Go ahead.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm sorry.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Go ahead.  Go, go, go.
20
Finish.  Please, go ahead.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry.  Can I finish?
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  When all this
24
nonsense took place, where this whole story with the
25
picture and the this and the that and this bullshit,
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I believe that this whole thing was manufactured, and
2
I can point you to some potentially corroborating
3
evidence of this.
4
           So when she gave the photograph to the FBI
5
in Australia --
6
           DIEGO PESTANA:  Just to be clear, the
7
photo, you're talking about, you're talking about the
8
famous one where --
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah, I have a image
10
of it here.  Who wants to look at it?
11
           DIEGO PESTANA:  -- where Prince Andrew is
12
holding 
 and you're in the background?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  The fake, just to be
14
clear.  So on the back of that, and this is in the
15
discovery by the way.  I don't know if it's in -- I
16
don't know where, which discovery I saw it in now.
17
           But this -- she wrote, she, 
,
18
wrote in the back that it was a picture that was
19
taken in January of 2000 and -- on 2000 or 2001, I
20
don't remember.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So now in her
23
handwriting, that she's giving the FBI this picture,
24
suddenly now it's March.  So how do you go from her
25
writing it's January to March.  It's because it
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only -- it's the only one that fit with the flight
2
logs, that when she could be in London and this took
3
place.
4
           The second thing is that -- oh, I'm so
5
excited to tell you this.  There is a journalist, I
6
know you guys are quite -- well, I don't know.  The
7
fake news is at work here.
8
           So there's a journalist called Sharon
9
Churcher.  There is a lawyer called Brad Edwards.
10
These two -- and there is a Southern District of
11
Florida prosecutor called Villafana.
12
           I would very much look forward to showing
13
you the relationship between these three parties that
14
created that story.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  Why?  Well, without --
16
putting aside the relationship, why do you think they
17
created that story?
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I believe that story
19
was created for the purposes of -- well, there are
20
multiple.  The first one is financial, the second one
21
is for the purposes of the CVRA case.  The third one
22
was for the serialization, both of her book and in
23
the papers, for the story to attack the Royal Family.
24
           And just as a --
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  So I think when -- when you
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were just asked about the photo, you said you
2
actually thought the photo was fake.
3
           Do you think it was just misdated or do
4
you think it's a fake -- literally a fake photo?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I believe it's
6
literally a fake photo.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Why do you think that?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, first of all, I
9
don't remember it.  We'll start --
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  But you --
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Right.  Okay.  But the
12
outfit I'm wearing --
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- is the outfit from
15
my mum's birthday party.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  So but you don't have
17
any -- do you dispute that they've met each other?
18
           DAVID MARKUS:  Do you know whether they've
19
met each other?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do not know that
21
they met.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  So -- so you not
23
only -- so you think the photograph is fake, but you
24
also are not even positive they actually ever met
25
each other.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm not.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  So you don't have a
3
specific recollection of kind of being at an event or
4
a party or your apartment, or you know, you're flat
5
in London with Prince Andrew and 
?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely not.
7
           DAVID MARKUS:  She doesn't know one way or
8
the other.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Understand that.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm just -- I want you
11
to know that --
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  No, I know.
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- the reason why --
14
I'm not hesitant.  I'm not -- I don't have any memory
15
of that, so that -- that's not the issue.  The issue
16
is, could Andrew have come to the house to see me or
17
see Epstein, and say hi and she had been there?  Yes.
18
I can't say that that didn't happen.
19
           But what I can absolutely, categorically
20
say is that I never, at any time, set Andrew up to
21
have relations with her or any other human being
22
ever.
23
           And I can categorically state that her --
24
her characterization of whatever may or may not have
25
happened, could -- physically would just no.  And
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plus, I was in the country, so all of that's just not
2
conceivable.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you attend -- did you
4
attend social parties over -- and again, I really,
5
now I'm focused on 2000 plus, so not -- not the
6
earlier, where Mr. Epstein would host a party or be a
7
big part of the hosting of the party and some of, or
8
many of the young women who were masseuses would be
9
invited to the party, as guests or his entertainment?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I certainly went to
11
his house when he would have people who would be
12
there that were -- I call them -- I would -- the way
13
I would think of it and I would characterize it, were
14
his entourage.  That's how I thought about it.  And
15
that certainly was in the later 2000s, Yes.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did -- did you attend any
17
weddings of famous people with Mr. Epstein?  Again,
18
I'm mostly focused on post -- plus -- post 2000, but
19
if there's something that comes to mind in the '90s,
20
that's fine as well.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  A wedding?
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Weddings.
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  With Epstein?  I don't
24
think I ever went to a wedding with Epstein.  I can't
25
think of a wedding that I ever went to with him.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know -- so you don't
2
remember -- you didn't attend President Clinton's
3
daughter's wedding --
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I did.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- Chelsea Clinton's.
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Right.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  But that wasn't with
8
Mr. Epstein?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No, it was with
10
Ted Waitt, my boyfriend.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Say it again.
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  With Ted Waitt, my
13
boyfriend.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Do you know whether
15
Mr. Epstein was at that wedding?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He was not.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  And how did you --
18
did you have a relationship -- well, why did you get
19
invited to that wedding?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Because Ted and
21
Clinton were very close.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  And why -- how were you
23
close to them?  Like what was the reason you were
24
close to them?
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I met President
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Clinton -- well, I first of all, I went to the
2
White House with Epstein once for, I think it was for
3
a historical, like one of those benefits and I met
4
the President then, but like a thousand other people
5
shook his hand.
6
           Then after that, I had a very -- a good
7
friend of mine that was the mayor -- known to be the
8
Mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine, and Philip and
9
the President were very good friends.  And Philip was
10
a very -- and I were very good friends, and so I
11
actually was introduced to the President post his
12
coming out of the White House and became friendly
13
with him, because of Philip Levine.
14
           DAVID MARKUS:  Because of what?
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Philip Levine.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  There's some names that
17
have been publicly associated with Mr. Epstein that I
18
just want to ask you if you know about:  Piers
19
Morgan?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Is friendly with who?
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  With Mr. Epstein.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I have no idea.
23
Never.  I doubt it.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  There's no trick
25
question.  I'm not trying to --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  Yeah.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- I'm not suggesting that
3
I know the answer to it.  I'm generally just asking.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, I would be
5
astonished.  I can't imagine they'd have anything in
6
common either.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  How about --
8
           DIEGO PESTANA:  Were you friends with
9
Piers Morgan?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I've met him.  I've
11
met him.  I met him at an event in Manhattan.  I
12
can't remember what -- in more recently, so probably
13
in 2012, '13, something in that, and we had a very
14
nice conversation.  So I remember -- I remember that.
15
           I remember thinking -- I'd never -- I
16
don't remember if I'd ever met him before, but I
17
remember thinking how nice he was and I was
18
surprised.  So I liked him.  What can I tell you?
19
           So that's the only one -- that's the only
20
memory I have of that.  I'm not sure if that's
21
correct but that's what I think.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  I don't have a correct or
23
incorrect answer.  I just want you to tell the truth.
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No, I just don't know.
25
I just want to try and...
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           TODD BLANCHE:  No, but I don't -- I want
2
you to believe me and -- because I mean this.  There
3
is so much information in the public sphere --
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, I see.  Okay.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- about you and
6
Mr. Epstein and others around, and some of it is
7
definitely true and some of it is definitely false --
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  All right.  I
9
just -- I guess that's --
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- so when I ask a question
11
--
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- if I think that you're
14
not being honest or that you're missing something,
15
I'm not going to -- this isn't got you.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  I'll say that to you.
18
           Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm sorry?
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever meet JFK, Jr.?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  When was that?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I will -- I met him at
24
Andrew Cuomo's wedding?  No, Kerry -- Kerry's
25
wedding.  Kerry's wedding.  Who did Kerry marry?
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Andrew Cuomo.  Yes.  Sorry.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Andrew Cuomo's wedding
4
in --
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  So when would that have
6
been, approximately?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  1990.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  So before --
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  1999.  I don't -- I --
10
something like that.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  But would that have been
12
before you met Mr. Epstein?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Or maybe -- yes.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you have a -- any sort
15
of professional or social relationship with John F.
16
Kennedy, Jr.?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I fancied him.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  You what?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I thought he was very
20
attractive.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Oh, you fancied him.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  Besides him -- finding him
24
attractive and fancying him, did you have any sort
25
of, you know, social relationship with him?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I mean, we knew each
2
other.  I thought he was wonderful and fun and I
3
enjoyed meeting him, but I -- we went out -- I want
4
to say we had a dinner or two, but obviously I was
5
very excited, but that was it.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  And then Alan Dershowitz.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- what's the
8
question with Alan?
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you -- say that again.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  What's the question?
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know Mr. Dershowitz?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know whether he knew
14
Mr. Epstein?  Do you know the nature of their
15
relationship?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  I definitely do
17
know Alan.  I want -- I'm just trying to remember if
18
I knew him -- I am trying to remember how I met him.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- and if I met him
21
separate from -- I don't remember.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So that I have no
24
recollection.  I remember -- I know that he was
25
Epstein's lawyer.  I don't know if they had any
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relationship prior to that.  I don't remember.  Oh, I
2
do actually.  Sorry.
3
           I think they met at the same
4
Martha's Vineyard through Lynn Forester.  I think
5
that's what happened.  I think that's it.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  And why do you think that?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Because it just popped
8
into my head.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  And did you -- did
10
you -- you said that Mr. Dershowitz was Mr. Epstein's
11
attorney.
12
           Do you know whether they also socialized?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So my personal memory
14
of when I remember two -- I have two distinct
15
memories with Alan.  One is with him and his wife at
16
the island, and I actually remember that.  And I
17
remember, I think, going to his house in Boston, if
18
he had a house in Boston, that's -- it was only two
19
times I remember.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever observe
21
Mr. Dershowitz doing anything inappropriate with
22
young women around Mr. Epstein?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Never.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever hear
25
anybody -- did anybody ever tell you that he had done
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anything inappropriate?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely not.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever -- did you --
4
do you know one way or the other, whether
5
Mr. Dershowitz ever got a massage at the island or
6
any of the locations that he was at with Mr. Epstein?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't remember
8
anything about him ever getting massaged.  I don't
9
ever have any recoll- -- I don't believe I ever even
10
saw him in a bathrobe.  I have no knowledge of that.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  I'm jumping around a little
12
bit.  You mentioned, I think briefly the TerraMar
13
Project.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  What is that?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I founded TerraMar
17
in -- well, the idea of TerraMar came, I think in
18
2010.  So I want to just explain TerraMar a little
19
bit.
20
           So Ted and I bought a boat -- well, Ted
21
bought the boat.  And its -- basis of the boat was to
22
do explorations and sea -- sea exploratory stuff.
23
This really started because I have, and have had
24
since I was a child, a love of the ocean and
25
everything aquatic.  And I've always been, I just --
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I'm nervous about the state of the ocean.
2
           When Ted and I, we worked with National
3
Geographic and we did exploratory work and the most
4
exciting -- we did many exciting things, but one of
5
the most fabulous ones that we did was we looked for
6
Amelia Earhart twice.  I did two expeditions to look
7
for Amelia Earhart, as an example of an -- of a
8
exploration that we did.
9
           And he had a foundation for the ocean and
10
we worked with Nat Geo, we worked with Woods Hole.
11
We did amazing things.
12
           We bought-- he bought the Remus 6000, so
13
when the plane went missing, the plane that went --
14
was it Air France?  From Brazil to Paris that went
15
down, it was the Remus 6000 that found that plane.
16
It's one of those deep sea explorers.
17
           Anyway, when I broke up with Ted, I
18
just -- one of the things I did not want to give up
19
was the -- my love of the ocean and everything that
20
we did and TerraMar, the genesis of TerraMar came
21
from that.  So TerraMar obviously means land, sea.
22
           And the story of the ocean is that earth
23
really shouldn't be called earth, it should be called
24
ocean because three quarters is the ocean.
25
           So -- and so I wanted to not clash with
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anything to do with Ted, because it was a bit awkward
2
between us and I -- so he took all the part of the
3
ocean that was close to land, so within 200 miles.
4
           And so I decided I would focus on all the
5
part of the ocean that was outside of national
6
borders, TerraMar.  And that's how that -- that's the
7
genesis of TerraMar.  Okay.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  So what was the time period
9
of that?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That -- I think after
11
I broke up with Ted, so 2010, '11 is when it started.
12
And then I ran it all the way up until whenever the
13
Epstein drama struck and then I just shut it down.
14
           Not -- I shut it down because I didn't
15
want what was happening to hurt any -- the
16
Smithsonian or Nat Geo or the -- I just couldn't let
17
everything be hurt by what was happening to me.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know Jean-Luc
19
Brunel?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  How do you know him?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I met him -- so
23
when -- I told you I was working for the European,
24
for my dad --
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- and I was in
2
charge.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  So back in like '90, early
4
'90s?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah.  And I was
6
running a magazine.  One of the things in the
7
magazine is fashion.  And so I was going to some
8
fashion shows and I was looking for fashion
9
sponsorship.  And in fact, when I came to America,
10
one of the first sponsors that I got for it was Ron
11
Perelman at Revlon, who was great.  And I met
12
Jean-Luc through just in Paris like that.  But
13
socially not ...
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did Mr. Epstein know him as
15
well?  Did you later learn whether they knew each
16
other?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'm not sure I -- I
18
don't -- he would've -- Epstein had his own fashion
19
situation, so he would've -- I don't -- he didn't
20
meet Jean-Luc through me.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever observe them
22
together over the years?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely.  Yeah, I
24
saw them many times together.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did -- did he visit the
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island?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did he go to Palm --
4
meet -- go to Palm Beach House?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes, he went -- yeah,
6
he went everywhere.  I saw him in every place.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did do you ever observe him
8
getting a massage or do you ever know whether they
9
got a massage?  Maybe you didn't observe him
10
personally?  You don't remember.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't know.  I mean,
12
I don't -- I never -- I have no conscious memory of
13
Jean-Luc.  I would imagine that he did, but I
14
never -- I don't see it.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  How about Mr. Weinstein,
16
Harvey Weinstein?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  What would you like to
18
know?
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know him?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  How do you know him?  Like,
22
I guess when I say "how do you know him," is it a
23
relationship you had kind of separate from
24
Mr. Epstein or did you guys -- did you meet him
25
through Mr. Epstein or both?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I wouldn't say --
2
first of all, I wouldn't say I had any type of
3
relationship with Harvey Weinstein --
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- in any context.
6
           Socially, I would meet him because I would
7
go to events that Harvey would be at and also his
8
wife was English back then, Georgina.  And I was, I
9
mean, friendly also, would be a big word, more
10
acquaintance.
11
           So we would see each other and I would go
12
to Miramax events, be -- there was a couple of people
13
who worked for Harvey who I was friendly with, his
14
primary producer whose name is Meryl Poster, who I
15
was friendly with, and yeah.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know whether
17
Mr. Epstein had his own relationship with
18
Mr. Weinstein?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He did.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did they socialize together
21
at the island or in Palm Beach, or in New Mexico?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I never saw Harvey at
23
any of Epstein's houses.  So socialize -- I don't
24
know that they were friends.  I mean, I can't see
25
them together, either.  I mean, literally.
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           But I know that they certainly do that.  I
2
would imagine -- and in fact, I think I have a
3
memory, but I can't -- that when Harvey was trying to
4
raise money for whatever his business was called, I
5
can't remember what his business was called.
6
           Maybe he went there, because Epstein was
7
good at raising money.  I just don't know.  But I
8
never saw them.  I don't -- I don't recall seeing
9
Harvey in any of the properties.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Let's just go a few more
11
minutes and take a break, I know it's after lunch.
12
           So do you -- we talked several hours ago
13
about your father and his business a little bit.
14
           After your father passed, do you know
15
whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family
16
business, that you know of?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely not, in any
18
respect.  First of all, there was no family business
19
left.  Start with that problem.  And the second one
20
is, my family didn't like him very much.  And they
21
were busy dealing with their own problems and there
22
was no relationship whatsoever.
23
           Oh, I mean, he -- my mum and he got along
24
quite well.  That was it.  But that was -- she's an
25
old lady and, you know, he was nice to her.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  We're repeat -- we're now
2
being a little repetitive, but you're confident that
3
before you met Mr. Epstein, he didn't know your
4
father, and so there's no -- he wouldn't have done
5
business with your father's companies in the '80s
6
either.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely not.  I'm a
8
hundred percent sure of that.  I never met him.  I
9
never saw him.  I never heard his name.  No.
10
Nothing.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  So there's been a lot of
12
conversations about whether Mr. Epstein maintained,
13
like, a list of people, like a book of famous people
14
that he knew.  Like a, it's called a black book or a
15
client list or a list.
16
           Did you know of the existence of any such
17
list?
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  There is no list.
19
We'll start with that.  The genesis of that story, I
20
can actually trace for you from its absolute
21
inception, if that is what you're interested in.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  It is.
23
           DAVID MARKUS:  Well, first, you know, to
24
be short, there is no list, there's no client list.
25
Nothing like that.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No, there is nothing
2
like that.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  That you know of.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That I -- obviously.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Right.  Yeah.  Okay.  So
6
you say you think you know the genesis, so go ahead.
7
Tell us.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I'd like you to know
9
that I have brought some supporting corroborative
10
evidence to --
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Well, tell me what it is,
12
too, and then we'll get the corroboration.
13
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  Well, why don't you tell
14
him first.
15
           DAVID MARKUS:  Is this -- is this -- do
16
you want to take a break here because this is a
17
long --
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  It's a long story.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah, this is long.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah, let's take a break.
21
           SPENCER HORN:  All right.  The time is
22
2:03 and we're going to take a break right now.
23
           (Off the record at 2:03 p.m.)
24
           SPENCER HORN:  All right.  We're resuming
25
the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell.  It is 2:16 on
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Thursday, July 24th.  And the recording device is now
2
on.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  So when we stopped to take
4
a break, we were talking about what has been publicly
5
discussed as a black book or the Epstein list.  And
6
that's where we are.
7
           So you said you think you might know or
8
that you're aware of kind of the origin of this
9
narrative.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Right.  I just want to
11
reiterate again, there is no list that I am aware of.
12
I've never, at any time, at least during the period
13
of time when I was --
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- present.
16
           The origin of this story, I believe,
17
begins -- or it has a beginning in 2009, and then it
18
has a prequel but we have to start in 2009.
19
           In 2009, there is -- Epstein is, I think,
20
out of jail, and there are civil suits taking place.
21
Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm,
22
Rothstein Adler -- Rothstein, Rosenfeldt & Adler.
23
           At that law firm is a lawyer who started
24
there in April, May, 2009, called Brad Edwards.  In
25
2009, allegedly the FBI gets a call in October of
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2009 from Brad Edwards, and he allegedly tells them
2
that he has come across a piece of evidence that
3
belongs to Epstein, that contains a list of all of
4
his clients and victims, underage girls, massage
5
therapists, and his -- and the men who are having sex
6
with them.  And he becomes -- he, Brad Edwards
7
becomes a cooperating witness -- cooperating --
8
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  Confidential.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- confidential
10
informant, sorry.  Confidential informant for them.
11
           And in a sting operation obtains the list
12
from a former butler of Epstein's called Alfredo
13
Rodriguez.  And it becomes evidence in the civil
14
suit.
15
           In the -- Alfredo Rodriguez is
16
subsequently prosecuted for having an AK-47 or
17
something weird, some guns or something, and goes to
18
trial.  And there's a criminal complaint that the FBI
19
produced.
20
           And in that criminal complaint, it says
21
that Brad Edwards became aware of the list, but --
22
we'll call it the list for the purposes of this.
23
After Alfredo Rodriguez's two depositions that are
24
held in Epstein's civil suit.
25
           It's in the FBI's affidavit that the
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evidence was collected, and Brad Edwards became aware
2
of it after the second deposition.  It's in the
3
criminal complaint.  The truth is different from
4
what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI
5
affidavit, and in Brad Edward's own statements on the
6
subject.
7
           The truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was
8
deposed twice, once in July and once in August.  And
9
in the July deposition, told Brad Edwards that he had
10
handwritten notes or a journal, whatever, in the
11
deposition.
12
           And Brad Edwards replies, well, we're
13
going to come back for a second deposition.  And the
14
second deposition takes place in August.
15
           What this means is that Brad Edwards had
16
access to the list from sometime between July and
17
August, until when he actually called the FBI in
18
October.  So we're talking six months or so.
19
           Rothstein's firm was raided a few days
20
after the list went into the FBI's hands, and,
21
subsequently, Rothstein himself was prosecuted for
22
RICO, and I believe went to jail for 50 years.
23
           As part of that RICO case, he admitted to,
24
on the record, and was -- I don't know whether he was
25
prosecuted for creating fake settlements and fake
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evidence in Epstein's case.
2
           In 2009, simultaneously whilst this was
3
going on, my boyfriend, Ted Waitt, was asked for
4
$10 million to keep me out of any of Epstein's civil
5
suits.  Up until then, I had not been in any of
6
Epstein's civil suits.  In fact, I wasn't even sure,
7
save for the first time I was mentioned was by
8
, I hadn't been -- I was basically nowhere.
9
           And then Ted was called for this
10
$10 million and had been shown -- his people had been
11
shown evidence that included the list, the flight
12
logs and various other pieces of evidence.
13
           Now, we're going to the prequel part of
14
this story, so then it can tie to how this starts.
15
           In 2007, Epstein signs the non-prosecution
16
agreement.  He then fights the prosecution agreement
17
or debates it through the DOJ or whatever happened
18
there, and is -- goes to the court in 2008, when it's
19
accepted or whatever that is.
20
           Villafana was the lead prosecutor or the
21
lead -- yes, in that case.  And she, I think, was not
22
happy or with the outcome and utilized, at that time,
23
Brad Edwards, to file the CVRA case.
24
           Now, what is -- what I have managed to
25
understand from this is, within the OPR itself, there
DOJ REDACTION-
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is evidence.  There it says that Brad Edwards was the
2
only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to.  So I
3
just want to preface that.
4
           The reason why I know that she went behind
5
Acosta's back, and everything else to do this, is
6
because Brad Edwards in a podcast made the
7
revelation.  What he says is that he'd never heard of
8
the CVRA case before, and Villafana called him and
9
told him to file it.  The sole purpose of the CVRA
10
was to overturn the non-prosecution agreement.
11
           So what I believe is that Villafana worked
12
with Brad Edwards, who she had also been -- he was
13
the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono lawyer
14
for some of the victims.  And he was also working for
15
Rothstein's firm, that was under RICO investigation
16
for that entire time, creating fake evidence in
17
Epstein's case.
18
           And she had just filed hidden secret using
19
Edwards to overturn the NPA by filing the -- this
20
CVRA case, that sole purpose was to overturn it.  And
21
so when he approached her with the list, this was
22
part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence
23
to support the overturning, either of the NPA and/or
24
a new case against Epstein.
25
           Because Brad Edwards -- or I don't know it
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was Brad Edwards.  Because Rothstein's firm asked my
2
then boyfriend for $10 million, to kick me out of
3
suits that I had no knowledge of at that time
4
whatsoever, I now know that the base of this story
5
was a blackmail of a billionaire, because Ted Waitt
6
was a multi-billionaire.
7
           He had everything.  He was way, way more
8
wealthy than Epstein, if anyone cares.  And that is
9
the reason why Ted and I broke up, was the basis of
10
that.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  So --
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And that list was
13
created -- so then the -- the masseuses that were on
14
that list, I have never heard of some of them.  I --
15
not even from the civil suits that had come up since
16
I've seen it.  And this is me now knowing what's in
17
the list today.
18
           And I believe that -- oh, Alfredo
19
Rodriguez, so there's a metamorphosis of this list.
20
So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes,
21
that's in the documents contemporaneously, is that
22
it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has.
23
           It then morphs into something that Alfredo
24
took a book, that Alfredo took from Epstein's
25
computer, but there's no computer I know.  Certainly
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not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken, that came
2
out as a book.
3
           And then it morphed into, at the civil
4
time -- my civil case, into a book that was taken
5
from my computer.  And then it morphed into the
6
Southern District of New York as a combination list
7
of mine and Epstein's.  That is a metamorphosis
8
through documents that you can trace.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  So the -- in your mind, or
10
from what you just described, there is a list, it's
11
just manufactured.  Meaning, have you seen the list,
12
even fake?  Like do you know --
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I haven't seen it, but
14
what I --
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  So just -- I was confused
16
--
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I guess my thing is
18
that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things
19
is -- in the paperwork and whatnot.  And in -- so all
20
this story is basically controlled by five people.
21
           There's four alleged victims that speak
22
about the list and the blackmail and the men and the
23
sex and whatnot -- And the lawyers and now the
24
prosecutors, sorry.  The Southern District of
25
New York for sure.  But no one else.
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           None of these stories carry from any of
2
the 44, alleged, original victims.  They never ever
3
say that they were farmed out to anybody.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  But the list itself --
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- where is it?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  There is no list, but
8
Brad Edwards said that he created the list.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  So that's what I was a
10
little  confused about.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry.  He created a
12
list.  He -- so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez
13
produced, that became evidence, Exhibit 52 in my
14
trial, has markings all over it.  Circles and dots
15
and whatnot.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Uh-huh.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And Brad Edwards says
18
that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of
19
all the people who were involved.  It includes Alan
20
Dershowitz, for the record, who's marked.  I don't
21
remember what it does with Donald Trump.  I don't --
22
I don't know.  You'd have to look.  I don't have it.
23
           But I believe --
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  I see.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So what he did, he
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marked up -- I don't know who.  Somebody marked up
2
that book of names, and I think all the names of the
3
people that they went for were originally selected
4
between two sources.  One was this alleged book of
5
names, and one was also from the telephone logs that
6
were collected from the house in Palm Beach.
7
           And just to finish it off, there is a
8
note -- I have some papers for you if you wanted
9
them, where Brad Edwards says that he has a list of
10
25 men that he got money off --
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  So -- okay.  So the list
12
that everybody, the black book, the list, what you're
13
saying is that your -- your Exhibit 52 from your
14
trial, which is like a -- more of an address book, a
15
Rolodex type thing, that Mr. Rodriguez -- Alfredo
16
Rodriguez, your understanding, is that somewhere
17
along the way he went through and kind of marked that
18
list to say --
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't know where
20
that book actually comes from.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't know what that
23
book is.  That book is some type of a compilation,
24
but what it is, is it's just pieces of paper with
25
type.  So if you had -- you could have made a list.
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I could put --
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  But you're referring to
3
something that's been public for a long, if we're
4
thinking about the same thing.  You're talking about
5
the -- you're right, it's like a bunch of different
6
types of paper or whatever.  I only have a copy of
7
it, but with big parts of it redacted publicly,
8
because there was people's addresses and whatnot on
9
it.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.  That's what I'm
11
talking about.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So it -- oh, perfect.
14
Yes.  So you will find --
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  We're looking at Exhibit 52
16
now.
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  So you're
18
looking at Exhibit 52.  So the one they produced,
19
they, the Southern District of New York actually
20
produced a book for me to see it as evidence, the
21
actual thing it was.
22
           And I -- it has marks, it has tabs, it has
23
things, it has names I've never seen.  It had -- like
24
that list -- those -- that list was basically the
25
names that they choose to produce at trial.  Now, in
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Rothstein Adler's firm, I also have some documents
2
where Rothstein -- his original scheme, Rothstein
3
Adler, was to place prostitutes.  He had a bar, a
4
dance bar where he had girls.  And I believe he would
5
use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's
6
offices, and then she might touch him or he might
7
touch her or something, and boom, he got $25,000 for
8
that.
9
           And those girls --now, I'm not saying that
10
those are the girls that came in Epstein's case
11
necessarily, but the --
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  So -- but again, let's --
13
like, so we're separating the evidence that came in
14
at your trial and what you just talked about with
15
Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez.
16
           During the time that you were with
17
Mr. Epstein, and even in the 2000s when you were
18
around less frequently, you never observed or you
19
never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of
20
individuals who, you know, linked to certain
21
masseuses or --
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely no.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- anything like that?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Absolutely no.  There
25
is no list.  There is no -- I'm not aware of any
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blackmail.  I never heard that.  I never saw it and I
2
never imagined it.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  While we're on this topic,
4
just -- and again, I know we're jumping around and
5
we've been going on it for a while, so I apologize.
6
           But there's recently been reports about a
7
birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I
8
think, for his 50th birthday in 2003.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's true.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  What do you know about
11
that?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So, my mum did a
13
birthday book for my father at his 60th.  And when
14
I -- Epstein would talk about his 50th, he said, I
15
don't know what I'm going to do.  And I said, well,
16
these are nice things, my mom did this book for my
17
dad.  He said, I love that idea.
18
           He said, can you help coordinate it?  And
19
he organized who -- he called a lot of the people
20
himself.  I coordinated the putting together of the
21
book.  And some -- in some instances, I called people
22
that asked them to contribute --
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  And what was in the book?
24
Like what was the ask of the people you called?
25
            GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  It's his 50th
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birthday, say anything you want on a piece of paper.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  Okay.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I mean, nothing more
4
than that.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Right.  I mean, it was an
6
obvious question.  But you basically -- his folks
7
were invited to send something to you to celebrate
8
his birthday.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.  To say happy
10
birthday with like, have a wonderful day or something
11
else.  There was no -- there was no ask, but I wasn't
12
responsible for everybody in that book.  And there
13
were people that he would ask himself to contribute.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  And do you remember some --
15
do you remember specific names of individuals who did
16
send letters or who did contribute?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  It's been so long.  I
18
want to tell you, but I don't remember.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you --
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I honestly don't
21
remember.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  The article talks about
23
several names, but including the folks -- the
24
article, which is on Donald Trump.  Do you remember
25
President Trump submitting a letter or a card or a
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note?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you think the
4
articles -- well, do you remember seeing that book or
5
any portion of the letters in your discovery in
6
New York?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  What do you remember
9
seeing?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I remember there
11
was -- there were some portions of that book.  But
12
what surprised me -- yeah.  What surprised me was how
13
few there were, because I thought if you had those,
14
where are the rest?  There was none of Mr. Trump.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  In your discovery?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Oh, in my discovery,
17
sorry.  President Trump, there was nothing from
18
President Trump.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  And do you remember -- but
20
separate and apart from your discovery, do you
21
remember one way or the other whether President Trump
22
submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do not remember.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  And the article that
25
references the letter talks about like a -- sounds
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like either a naked -- a picture of a naked woman or
2
something like that.
3
           Do you have any recollection of that?
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do not.  But just --
5
no, I don't.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you remember -- so what
7
do you remember seeing from your discovery around the
8
book?  Like you said, portions of it or some of the
9
pages.
10
           What do you remember.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I remember there were
12
maybe -- so I just want to say about the discovery
13
that I had about -- maybe this is an exaggeration,
14
I'm not sure, but in my mind it's about close to 5
15
million page -- 5 million documents.  It was a lot.
16
           And of that giant document dump that I
17
received, I was only -- maybe as much as 30 to 35
18
percent, I was never able to access.  And this is
19
documented on -- at the court.  And so I cannot say
20
that I saw everything, because I didn't.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  Okay.
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I just want you to
23
know that.  And I think that that was by design.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  But you -- but you do
25
remember --
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do remember some
2
pages.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  -- seeing some pages of the
4
book?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do, yes.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Do you remember what
7
pages you saw?  Like from -- it was from -- who had
8
written those letters or no?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I really don't
10
remember.  I'm sorry.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  It's okay.  Did you
12
-- did you and/or -- so the same questions we've
13
asked about some other individuals.
14
           Did you have -- did you meet Bill Gates
15
over the years?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Because of your
18
relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That one -- well, I
20
met Mr. Gates -- I went to the TED conference.  I
21
gave -- I went to the TED conference and I actually
22
spoke at the TED Conference, not the main stage, the
23
substage.  And I also gave several TEDx's.
24
           But -- and I met him there, but we were
25
friendly and I actually did meet him, because I knew
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his -- I don't know if he was chief of staff or
2
whoever, Boris.  And I met him, I think, once.  I may
3
have met him actually at 71st Street.  I may have
4
once.  I don't remember if I met him there or at a
5
restaurant, I don't remember.  And that would've been
6
because of Epstein, because Epstein was friendly with
7
Boris and Boris -- that's all I remember.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know whether
9
Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to
10
any of his houses?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So if that -- that
12
friendship was after, you know, it was in the late
13
2000s.  So if I met him -- like I said, I went to
14
Epstein's house maybe once or twice.  Maybe I met him
15
there.  I don't remember.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  So you don't --
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So I wouldn't know if
18
he had been on Epstein's plane.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  And you weren't -- you
20
don't recall ever being on the plane with him flying
21
to the island or to anywhere?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know somebody named
24
Reid Hoffman?
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Who's that?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Reid is a Silicon
3
Valley guy.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Is what?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Silicon Valley.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  And how do you know him?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Through my friends in
8
San Francisco.  I have a -- I used to have a very
9
close friend who is in San Francisco who's part of
10
that whole -- I have several, actually, or had.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  So is that a relationship
12
you had kind of separate and apart from Mr. Epstein?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Separate.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know whether
15
Mr. Epstein had a relationship with Reid Hoffman?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't know.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you ever observe
18
Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Or getting massages?
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  No.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  So there was -- there's a
23
list of multiple masseuses that is floating around.
24
I think you had in your discovery.  I think you were
25
just talking about that.
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           That list, do you know how that list was
2
created?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  That -- all that
4
stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  As far -- as part of the
6
story you just told us?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.  Now, I'm not
8
saying it's all fake.  I don't know what's real and
9
what's not.  I don't --
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Understood.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- know what name is
12
true.  Now that it's been to my mind anyway, now that
13
it has been, without a doubt, contaminated and
14
possibly fraudulent, I'm not -- I don't know.  I
15
mean, obviously the numbers that I recognize are my
16
own, those are real.
17
           But how it was actually ended up put
18
together and compiled and the purposes for it, for
19
which then they blackmailed my boyfriend, now I'm
20
just -- no.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Over the years when you
22
were serving as like the general manager, so the mid
23
'90s all the way into the 2000s.  Did you or do you
24
know whether anyone maintained a list of all the
25
masseuses, like a running list?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So there would've --
2
so there's two things -- well, three ways.  So I know
3
that the house itself, John Alessi had a Rolodex that
4
he kept the names and numbers of all the people that
5
came to the house so that he could call.
6
           So --because I only was with Epstein, even
7
at best, half the time.  So when I was there, he had
8
like his chief of staff who could find whatever he
9
needed.  And when I wasn't there, he had to rely on
10
somebody else, right?  So it'd be that John Alessi or
11
whoever else.
12
           So everybody -- whoever was traveling with
13
him or wherever he was, he needed somebody else to
14
access information.  So he had an assistant chief who
15
was his secretary, who would be the one that would
16
update his computer, you know, like everybody has an
17
address book.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  But was what you're
19
describing, which I'm not -- it makes sense.  I'm
20
just -- was that a list of masseuses or a list of
21
people that might need to be contacted, which would,
22
necessarily, include a lot of masseuses?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's -- the latter.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  And did you update that?
25
Like were you part of -- were you one of the people
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that would add names to it?  Like if a masseuse came
2
and leaves and Mr. Epstein says yes, she was good,
3
would you be part -- like, how, how was the list kind
4
of maintained or who maintained it?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Typically, no --
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  No.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  -- because there would
8
be an assistant who would do that.  Plus, Epstein
9
would not allow me to answer the telephone ever.  So
10
-- or maintain or keep any of his messages in the
11
office or at the house.
12
           So typically that wouldn't be, because I
13
wouldn't be the one.  Could I say to you I never did
14
it?  No, of course not.  Because that just seems
15
ludicrous.  But as a rule of thumb, the answer would
16
be no.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  During the 2007, '08, '09,
18
investigation -- the investigation out of the
19
Southern District of Florida.  So you said that you
20
weren't contacted by law enforcement.
21
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I was not.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  After Mr. Epstein was
23
charged, did you have conversations with him about
24
the investigation?
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He never talked to me
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about it.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did you --
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I mean, I can't --
4
let's put it this way.  If he did, I have no
5
recollection of it.  I mean, I'm sure he must have
6
said, this is all -- whatever he said or it's nothing
7
or whatever.
8
           I mean, I just don't have any -- I just
9
don't have any memory.  I mean, I just -- I was with
10
Ted.  My -- I was like gone.  I mean, plus I just
11
didn't want to know either, I suppose.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  So you don't know,
13
firsthand, why the U.S. Attorney in Florida made the
14
deal that he did?  Meaning you weren't part of that
15
discussion along the way.
16
           Like Mr. Epstein didn't say, I'm getting a
17
good deal or, you know, I -- something is happening
18
with the case that's very good.
19
           You were -- to the extent you know
20
anything about it, it's just from what you've heard
21
or read from others, not from Mr. Epstein; is that
22
right?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He never talked about
24
the non-prosecution directly with me, no.  But he did
25
--
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           DAVID MARKUS:  But it's still enforceable
2
as to her.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I mean, he never said,
4
hey, do you -- are you happy with this deal like
5
that.  But I understood.  He never -- he never
6
enjoined me to the NPA, but I understand that he
7
included me, specifically, and I'll tell you why.
8
           DAVID MARKUS:  Well, it's okay.  You don't
9
need to get into that.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  No, no.  Yeah.  I'm not --
11
I don't want to talk about the legal -- the -- what's
12
on appeal.  I'm just --
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  I -- well, I
14
wasn't.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  The reason for my question,
16
just to be -- I'm not trying to hide something, but
17
there's a very strong belief that he got a very good
18
deal.  And that he should -- she -- he should have
19
been sentenced to more time or got a different
20
sentence from the feds than a non-prosecution
21
agreement.
22
           And I'm not asking you to opine on that,
23
but I'm wondering whether he ever talked to you about
24
that.  But it sounds like he didn't.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That he got a good
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deal.  No.  I think actually -- well, his comments
2
that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal.
3
And I think that the, you know, when he fought it so
4
hard is because he didn't think he did.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  When he was serving his
6
sentence, were you ever -- were you around during
7
that time, like when he was allowed to leave during
8
the day or travel during the day?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I never called him.  I
10
never saw him and I never went to the jail.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  So I'm going to ask you
12
questions that you shouldn't read into them.  I just
13
want to know whether you -- whether they resonate
14
with you.
15
           Have you ever had any contact with any
16
representative, that you know of, from Mossad, the
17
Israeli intelligence agency.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Can you ask me that
19
again.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Has -- have you ever had
21
any contact with an individual that you understand to
22
be from Mossad, an Israeli intelligence agency?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, not
24
deliberately.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  Pardon me?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Not deliberately.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  And did you know --
3
we asked this -- we talked about this a little bit
4
earlier, but just to put a finer point on it.  Did
5
you ever know that Mr. -- did you ever -- were you
6
ever told -- did you ever think that Mr. Epstein was
7
getting any money from any intelligence agency,
8
including Mossad?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, I don't believe
10
so, but I wouldn't know.  I mean, I would be very
11
surprised if he did.  I don't think so.  No.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  We've talked about a lot of
13
names and I'm sure we've -- there's some that we
14
haven't covered.  Are there any foreign nationals --
15
so right now we've talked about some British, the
16
Royal Family a little bit, and maybe high society
17
folks in Britain.
18
           Were there any international businessmen
19
or politicians that had a very close relationship or
20
a close relationship with Mr. Epstein, that we
21
haven't already talked about?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Off the top of my,
23
head, I can think of Ehud Barak.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  You said that Mr. Epstein
25
at some point in the mid to late '90s he started
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taking testosterone.  Did you ever know him to take
2
any other drugs?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.  I mean, he took
4
pills for his heart, I think, but I don't -- no
5
other -- no substances.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  What -- do you know
7
anything about his heart condition?  I know we talked
8
about this at, you know, 9:45 this morning.  But do
9
you know anything about his heart condition, beyond
10
that you understood he had a heart condition that
11
affected his ability to have sex?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Other than what he
13
told me, no.  He never shared anything, but he did
14
take pills.  I don't know what -- I don't know
15
anything above that.  And like I said, he did the
16
testosterone, which made him mean.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  And we're jumping around a
18
little bit.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Sorry.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Sorry.  Do you know someone
21
named Donald Barr?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  He is -- I can represent to
24
you, was a former headmaster of the Dalton School,
25
which you mentioned earlier.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  All right.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you remember any
3
conversations with Epstein about a book that Mr. Barr
4
wrote called Space Relations?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I've never heard of
6
that.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  About aliens and sex?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.  No.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know whether --
10
well, have you ever met the former Attorney General
11
of the United States Bill Barr?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  No.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you remember whether
14
Mr. Epstein knew him or whether his name ever came up
15
in conversations you had with Mr. Epstein?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't recall any.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Did you have a
18
relationship or know -- I'm using "relationship," but
19
I appreciate you don't like that word.
20
           Do you have -- did you know Mr. Epstein's
21
brother Mark Epstein?
22
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  How did you know him?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Through Jeffrey.
25
           TODD BLANCHE:  How would you describe your
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relationship; close, friendly?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  My personal?
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yes.
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Not that close, but
5
friendly enough.  I mean, you know.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  How was Jeffrey Epstein's
7
relationship with his brother Mark from what you
8
observed?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I mean, they were
10
brotherly, but I think that -- I don't know.  I don't
11
know.  They had periods when they were closer and
12
then when they weren't.  I think sometimes Epstein
13
found his brother irritating.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  And I think I know the
15
answers, given what you just said about Bill Barr,
16
but did you ever hear any -- from Mr. Epstein or
17
anybody else -- that Bill Barr had any role in
18
Mr. Epstein getting a good plea deal in Florida, or
19
any role in that process with Mr. Acosta?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I never heard that.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  I think you said this in an
22
interview, but if I'm wrong forgive me.  Do you have
23
a view of Mr. Epstein of whether he committed suicide
24
or whether something else happened?
25
           DAVID MARKUS:  Can we take a break?
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Want to take a break?
2
           DAVID MARKUS:  Yeah, sure.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  We can take a break.
4
Yeah.  Sure.  Actually, it's a good time to take a
5
break anyway, because it's to be the last one of the
6
day.
7
            SPENCER HORN:  All right.  So we're going
8
to take a break at -- it's 2:53, Thursday, July 24th.
9
            (Off the record at 2:53 p.m.)
10
           SPENCER HORN:  We are continuing with the
11
recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell.  The time is now
12
3:10 p.m., Thursday, July 24th.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  My colleagues alerted me to
14
a couple questions I think I may have forgotten to
15
ask you.  One is -- sorry, I'm just going through my
16
notes.
17
           Well, we talked few minutes ago about this
18
birthday book that there's press about.  I understand
19
you don't remember anything with President Trump or a
20
lot about the book anyway.
21
           Do you remember asking President Trump to
22
submit a letter for that?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do not.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  And do you remember --
25
would you have been the one to do that or could
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somebody else -- would somebody else have done that?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I did ask some people.
3
I don't remember Mr. Trump.  I don't remember who I
4
did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself
5
directly.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  So it could have
8
happened that way, if it happened at all.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Where is that?
10
           DIEGO PESTANA:  You mentioned Ehud Barak.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
12
           DIEGO PESTANA:  What was his involvement?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  This would've been in
14
the later 2000's.  So I do not know how they met, but
15
I do know that they -- I don't know if friendly would
16
be the right word.  I don't know that, but I know
17
that they saw each other and only because my
18
father -- you know, anything that touches Israel or
19
the state of Israel, I'm always interested in,
20
because my father loved Israel and so I pay attention
21
to it and we have ties to, you know, to Israel.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  When you said it was later
23
though --
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Ties meaning friends
25
and family relations.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Was the Prime Minis- was
2
Mr. Barak, Prime Minister Barak, do you know what the
3
nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know -- were you
6
ever with them together?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think I met -- I
8
have a memory of meeting Ehud, but I don't know if he
9
was with Epstein or -- I don't remember.  I just know
10
that I did see him and I'm trying -- struggling to
11
remember the context around it, but if I -- if -- I'm
12
sure it happened, but it must have been very brief.
13
Because I don't have any serious memory of it.  Any
14
like, deep memory of that.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  And maybe this is
16
obvious --
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And maybe it comes
18
also because I've read it in the press.  That may be
19
something that brought it to my memory.  So that's
20
also -- I mean, I'm also -- I think the press has
21
been very contaminating, so I just -- it's hard
22
sometimes to separate those stories from your memory
23
sometimes.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know a British
25
gymnast by the name of Heather Mann?
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did she --
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I didn't know she was
4
a gymnast.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Oh, okay.  I'm reading
6
something that says she was a gymnast, but please
7
don't assume that that's correct.  This is based upon
8
my words.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Okay.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did she ever travel with
11
you and/or Mr. Epstein?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think, yeah, she did
13
actually.  I think that she might have been one of
14
Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point.
15
           TODD BLANCHE:  What -- again, I know we're
16
talking about time periods that are vast.  What time
17
period would that have been?  Like after you --
18
like since 2000?
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I want to say -- I
20
don't know, it could be the '90s -- could be the
21
'90s, I don't know.  But I mean, listen, there are
22
people that pop out of the woodwork all the time.  I
23
just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in
24
'93 and '94.  So I mean, he obviously was very busy.
25
           LEAH SAFFIAN:  Or she's lying.
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           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Or there's that.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did - someone named Mark
3
Middleton --
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes, I remember him.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Who was that?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  He was in the --
7
Mr. Clinton's administration -- President Clinton's
8
administration, I think.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  And how do you -- do you
10
know him?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, I met him and
12
that is -- I met him through Mr. Epstein.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  And do you -- was he, from
14
what you observed, was he a friend or business
15
acquaintance of Mr. Epstein?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I mean, I only saw him
17
a handful of times, but I did see him with him.  I
18
mean, he seemed friendly.  I don't know if I would
19
characterize -- I mean, only having seen him briefly,
20
I don't know how to characterize that.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know whether he like
22
flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein?  Did he visit the
23
island?  Do you know anything about that or their
24
relationship as it relates to that?
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I never -- I don't
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have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the
2
island.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  How about former US Senator
4
George Mitchell?
5
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yeah, I do remember
6
George.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  What do you remember about
8
him?
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I traveled with him.
10
We went to -- the most memorable affair I went to --
11
well, I was friendly with his wife.  Start with that,
12
with Heather.  And Heather was in New York, so I hung
13
out with her a few times.  We had dinner and I was
14
just friendly, I would say separately with --
15
separately from her husband.  I was friends with
16
Heather.  I met Heather through her husband, but we
17
became friends.
18
           TODD BLANCHE:  You became friends with
19
Heather?
20
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Heather, yes.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Was Mr. Epstein friends
22
with, Mr. Mitchell?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did they travel together
25
besides New York?  Did they travel to the island or
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to New Mexico?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't -- I don't
3
remember George ever at the island.  But the most
4
memorable trip I do recall with Senator was to Italy.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  Was to where?
6
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  To Italy.
7
           TODD BLANCHE:  Ah, okay.
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  We went to Rome.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  As the four of you.  So
10
Heather and Mr. Mitchell, and you and Mr. Epstein?
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  That's my
12
recollection.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  And what were you there
14
for?
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Well, the most
16
memorable aspect of that trip is we went to the
17
Vatican.  It was extraordinary, the most
18
extraordinary thing was going to the archives and
19
holding Henry VIII's document to the Pope asking for
20
his divorce.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  Do you know the former
22
president of Colombia, Andr?s Pastrana?
23
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
24
           TODD BLANCHE:  How do you know him?
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I met Andr?s Pastrana
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in a pub in Dublin.
2
           TODD BLANCHE:  And did he travel with
3
Mr. Epstein, that you know?
4
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't -- I don't
5
know if -- I don't know if he ever was ever on the
6
plane.  I don't know if he ever -- I don't think he
7
ever came to the island.  But, I went to places with
8
Andr?s Pastrana.  One was to Colombia and Epstein
9
came to that, and the other was to Cuba and Epstein
10
and Andr?s Pastrana was -- I think was there.
11
           TODD BLANCHE:  And what were the purposes
12
of traveling to Colombia, then Cuba?
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I am a helicopter
14
pilot and Andr?s is a helicopter pilot.  And we just
15
became friends and I flew a Blackhawk in Colombia.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  And how about to Cuba?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  My -- I have a friend
18
of mine who was the cigar distributor for Montecristo
19
maybe, I can't remember which cigar it was.  And so
20
we went there, and he organized the trip and we met
21
Fidel Castro.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  When was that,
23
approximately?
24
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Had to be -- it had to
25
be 2002, 2003.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Something like that, I
3
think.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  There's some more names
5
that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type
6
of questions, just -- but as far as a catchall,
7
there's been a tremendous amount of public
8
information about all kinds of names, including some
9
of the folks we talked about today and their
10
relationship with Mr. Epstein and or you.
11
           For any of the folks that we've talked
12
about today, did you observe them doing anything
13
improper with Mr. Epstein, whether with masseuses or
14
with women who were -- or girls who were traveling or
15
at the residence that they were at or at the parties
16
that they were at?
17
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I did not ever, at any
18
time, see that.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  And for any of the names
20
we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll
21
talk about some more, but for today, do you recall
22
having any conversations with anybody else, where
23
they reported to you that they had seen something
24
that one of these individuals had done, whether
25
someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody
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that observed something?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  If anybody had ever
3
reported anything -- first of all, the answer to that
4
is no.  And also, I just want to be clear that had
5
anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting
6
like that, I would've immediately done something.
7
And I never heard it.  I never saw it.  And no one
8
ever, ever, ever complained to me or tears, nothing
9
like that.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  All right.  So we
11
took a break when we were talking about Mr. Epstein
12
and his death.  Oh, bless you.  That's okay.  Take
13
your time.
14
           So Mr. Epstein and his death.  So you were
15
not, obviously, at the MCC during that time, correct.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Thank you.
17
           DAVID MARKUS:  Oh, thanks.  I thought you
18
were giving it to him.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I've got something
20
that blew up my nose.
21
           TODD BLANCHE:  So just take some water.
22
It's okay, no problem.
23
           You were not at the MCC during that time,
24
correct?
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I was not.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  So you're going to tell us
2
what you believe, but just to -- I just want to make
3
sure I understand, your basis for belief is kind of
4
what you've read and seen and your knowledge of
5
Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew them -- knew
6
him, right?
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And actually there's a
8
third component.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  The answer to that is,
11
yes.
12
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
13
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  And there's a third
14
component to that, which is having experienced now,
15
the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total
16
dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  From BOP.  From the Bureau
18
of Prisons.
19
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
20
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Fair.  Okay.  So,
21
you know, I want to -- what I do want to be careful
22
about is -- you know, asking you to speculate,
23
because anybody can do that.  And I don't think
24
that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give
25
us your kind of opinion.
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           But, do you think that -- the third point
2
you say, which is kind of a failure by the BOP,
3
there's been a lot of -- there's an OIG report,
4
there's SDNY investigation about that.  Do you -- so
5
you think he was -- he did not die by suicide, given
6
all the things we just talked about.
7
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do not believe he
8
died by suicide, no.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  And do you believe that --
10
do you have any speculation or view of who killed
11
him?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I -- no, I don't.
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  And I ask that because, if
14
you don't believe that there's any truth to the
15
allegations of blackmail or that he had kind of a
16
list, or that he had reasons to have people hate him,
17
why would somebody kill him in prison?
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  In prison, where I am,
19
they will kill you or they will pay -- somebody can
20
pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of
21
commissary.  That's about the going rate for a hit
22
with a lock today.
23
           TODD BLANCHE:  So that goes to the third
24
reason, which is kind of the mismanagement.
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Or the shortfallings or
2
shortcomings of the Bureau of Prisons.
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
4
           TODD BLANCHE:  Which is a little bit
5
different than my -- from my question is, which is,
6
do you think there was somebody on the outside of
7
prison, so putting aside, what could happen on the
8
inside on the outside of prison, who would -- who
9
wanted him dead so badly that he would've, or she
10
would've, you know, caused him to be killed on the
11
inside?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think that's -- I
13
don't see that.  I think, is it possible?  Of course
14
it's possible.  But I don't know of any reason why,
15
and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of
16
this, I don't think Epstein had a hit on like that.
17
If it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal
18
situation.
19
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  So you're not -- you
20
don't have any reason firsthand knowledge or even
21
speculation, it sounds like, to think that he was --
22
if -- that he was killed to kind of silence him or to
23
keep him from going public about people he knew
24
about?
25
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't, no, because I
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think that is just part of the story that's been
2
created that started back in 2008, '09.
3
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.  Yeah, I mean, that's
4
the point.  Like, I don't want -- I don't think
5
there's value in talking -- you know, there's been a
6
lot of -- there's a lot of information about what
7
happened, you know, at the MCC and -- but what is
8
important to me is whether, you know, if -- is the
9
idea that he didn't die by suicide, that's one thing.
10
But if to the extent that folks believe that he was
11
murdered to keep him quiet or because he had
12
information on rich and powerful people, that's what
13
I -- do you have any reason to believe that that's
14
true?
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I do not have any
16
reason to believe that.  And I also think it's
17
ludicrous, because if that -- I also happen to think
18
if that is what they wanted, they would've had plenty
19
of opportunity when he wasn't in jail.  And if they
20
were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he
21
would've been a very easy target.
22
           TODD BLANCHE:  In the time -- so we've
23
talked about a lot of time, all the way up through
24
2009, '10, and then your -- the time that after
25
Mr. Epstein was arrested, when's the last time you
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spoke with him?
2
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Maybe 2016, 2017,
3
maybe 2016 -- 2015, 2016, 2017 in that area, I
4
believe.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  And what -- when you're
6
thinking about that last time was that you had
7
talked -- been talking to him a lot, and then you
8
stopped, or was that a one-off time and it was
9
infrequent at that point?
10
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I really wasn't in
11
communication.  The only communications I had with
12
him was in -- with regards to the civil suits, the
13
civil suit that I found myself in, the defamation
14
suit I found myself in.  I needed help, I needed
15
information, and I didn't have what I needed.
16
           And so that was really what it was -- that
17
what drove it, was me trying to get myself out of
18
this situation, which I -- ultimately led to where I
19
am today.
20
           And so when -- when all that -- when
21
that -- I don't remember even if I stopped talking to
22
him before that, I think he was -- I thought he was
23
angry with me anyway.  He didn't like what I did, and
24
he -- I wasn't interested in what he had to say to
25
me, and --
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           TODD BLANCHE:  What did you think he was
2
angry with you about?
3
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I think he was angry
4
that I had even said that I had referred to her being
5
a liar.  He said I should have not said anything but.
6
           TODD BLANCHE:  When the civil suits that
7
were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death?
8
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Yes.
9
           TODD BLANCHE:  Did your lawyers coordinate
10
with his lawyers, like in discovery and things like
11
that or anything?
12
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't think we
13
coordinated in -- I don't -- I'm not sure.
14
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
15
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I don't want to
16
misspeak.  I don't -- I -- there was some degree of
17
communication for sure.  I just don't know the degree
18
that that took place.  So definitely -- I mean, I was
19
definitely hoping for him to be more helpful.  And I
20
was definitely, coordinating is not a good word,
21
because that sounds like I was trying to make --
22
align myself.
23
           That's not where we were going here, but I
24
was definitely trying to get help.  As in documents
25
or information that I could use to defend myself.
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That's a hundred percent true.  And the degree to
2
which that took place, I'm not -- I don't recall.
3
There was definitely some of that, though.  I don't
4
want to mislead you.
5
           TODD BLANCHE:  And we touched on this
6
earlier, but I just want to -- I don't think we
7
really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could
8
like.  Going up through that time, you know, so in
9
the '16, '17, '18, up until the time he's arrested,
10
had your view or your understanding of what had
11
happened changed?
12
           Meaning did you believe that in the late
13
'90s or early 2000s when he started, you know,
14
behaving much differently.  Did you believe what you
15
were hearing about him at that point?
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  My views, I didn't
17
like the people he was with anyway.  So I don't find
18
-- how do I say this?  I don't like -- I like people
19
who my age or older, and I don't find the society of,
20
or the companionship of younger people who are young
21
people, I suppose, is really that enjoyable.  So I
22
don't like the company that he chose to be with, and
23
so I just was -- I find it boring and fundamentally
24
uninteresting.  That's probably the nicest way I can
25
say it.
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           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  Okay.  So I think
2
what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking
3
about tomorrow.  Everything was great today.  I think
4
that we -- it was very helpful and I appreciate you
5
trying to be as complete as you can.
6
           I think tomorrow -- you've said a few
7
things today about materials that you brought.  When
8
we're done, we will give you a few minutes with Mr.
9
Markus to -- if there's things that you want to show
10
him that you think we should see.
11
           Like I said, I'm not asking you to
12
corroborate anything.  If I was asking you to
13
corroborate something, I would tell you, but if
14
there's something you think that you don't think that
15
the government has seen or you think that is
16
important for me to see, let Mr. Markus know and he
17
can share it with me.
18
           Tomorrow we'll certainly have some
19
follow-on questions when we all think about tonight.
20
And I think you will too.  You know, we can all think
21
about stuff we've talked about.  We covered a lot of
22
different areas.  We are -- I do want to talk about
23
more about you.
24
           So by design today we wanted to focus on
25
Mr. Epstein and talk about, you know, kind of, well,
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everything under the sun that we've gone through
2
today.  I do think it's important when we all
3
evaluate what you've said today, and kind of your
4
story to understand, to also understand your -- why
5
you're here, right?
6
           So you were indicted, you were charged,
7
you went to trial.  And I want to do that in a way
8
that gives you an opportunity to say -- to kind of
9
say your piece or to say what you haven't said
10
before.
11
           But also understanding that there was
12
people who took the witness stand and swore to tell
13
the truth and testified about you, and what you did,
14
and what they think you saw and what they heard you
15
say.
16
           And I'm not -- I said to Mr. Markus, I'm
17
not trying to create a kind of a she said, she said
18
situation or he said, she said situation.  But I do
19
want to hear from you about your conduct, because
20
it's important, I think, for when we evaluate what
21
you say and how you say it and your recollection of
22
things to also to talk about that.
23
           So we're going to -- we'll do that
24
tomorrow.  I want to talk about, you know, the
25
circumstances leading up to your arrest.  There's a
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lot of, I think, misinformation or there's a lot of
2
information out there that -- I don't know whether
3
there's misinformation, but about the time from, you
4
know, 2019 up until the time that you were -- that
5
you were arrested.
6
           And then, like I said, that'll take us
7
through lunch tomorrow and then we'll be done.  I'm
8
not -- I don't have a plan.  I didn't know that I was
9
coming here until this week, okay?  So I'm not --
10
there isn't like a -- we don't have like a schedule
11
of what happens next or what happens.
12
           But the -- but that's not a negative
13
thing.  I'm just saying that that's -- so you
14
shouldn't take the lack of a next step as anything
15
other than, we don't have a next step yet, so.
16
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  May I say something?
17
           TODD BLANCHE:  Of course, yes.
18
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  I just would like to
19
put out there that I also focused on how I think the
20
president got swept into some of this unnecessarily,
21
by the way.  And I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I
22
certainly don't subscribe to all the -- all of
23
everything that I see.
24
           But I do believe that there is animus in
25
some areas that may have contributed to how the use
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of the president to harm him, that I find deeply
2
offensive.  And whilst I can't obviously say
3
definitively that that is what it is, I would like to
4
show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and
5
do with that as you see fit if it needs to be
6
addressed.  I've seen it, it struck me, and I would
7
like to give it to you.
8
           TODD BLANCHE:  Sure.
9
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  For what it's worth.
10
           TODD BLANCHE:  Okay.
11
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Does that seem
12
something that I can --
13
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah, that's fine.  Yeah.
14
           GHISLAINE MAXWELL:  Of course.  I don't
15
like that.
16
           TODD BLANCHE:  Yeah.  Okay.  That's fine.
17
That's great.  Okay, so why don't we stop for today.
18
I'll give you a little bit of time to chat and then,
19
see you in the morning.
20
            SPENCER HORN:  This will conclude the
21
recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th.
22
We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th.  The
23
time is 3:34.
24
           (Interview concluded at 3:34 p.m.)
25
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           CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION
2
             I, Cathy M. Ayotte, do hereby certify
3
that the provided audio recording media was
4
transcribed by me or reduced to typewriting under my
5
supervision, that said transcript is a true
6
transcription of the audio recording; that I am
7
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any
8
of the parties to the action involved in these
9
proceedings; and, further, that I am not a relative
10
or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by
11
the parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise
12
interested in the outcome of the action.
13
14
           __________________________________________
           CATHY M. AYOTTE, Official Transcriptionist
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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A 
81 :13 
183:10 184:17 
12:15 14:19 16:14,18 
ability 
accused 
189:1 194:4 197:13 
16:25 25:24 26:2 
37:17 70:3 191 :11 
22:16 84:22 85:13 
204:7 
31:5,15 39:2,6,12 
able 
86:22 
add 
39:12 45:25 46:4,4 
60:17 133:4 180:18 
accusers 
102:7 186:1 
52:15 53:6,15,15,20 
above 
96:24 
addition 
95:11,13 118:9 
191:15 
Ace 
2:15 
136:11 139:21 
Abramson 
15:3,13 16:7 17:7 
address 
151:6 159:10 
101:1 
55:3 56:18 101 :3 
109:25 124:10 
163:11,14 167:23 
absolute 
achievement 
174:14 185:17 
168:2,20 182:12 
141:13 164:20 
105:3 
addressed 
186:22 197:17 
absolutely 
Acosta 
214:6 
207:24 
25:16 30:7 41 :6 
193:19 
addresses 
afternoon 
53:25 83:15 89:5,13 Acosta's 
93:18 175:8 
71 :25 109:12 
108:11 114:10 
170:5 
Adler 
afterwards 
124:24 144:12,13 
acquaintance 
166:22,22 176:3 
88:11 
148:6,19 157:2 
74:15 162:10 198:15 
Adler's 
again 
160:23 163:17 
Acquaintanceship 
176:1 
12:2 18:7,22 25:22 
164:7 176:22,24 
135:16 
administration 
28:6 30:23 62:10 
abuse 
acquisition 
198:7,8 
64:4,24 65:5 68:15 
75:3,8 97:16,23 98:8 
25:25 
admire 
73:6 90:6,18 91 :6 
98:22 
across 
105:2 
93:15 100:16 102:4 
abused 
167:2 
admitted 
103:7,13 106:12 
74:25 94:16 119:7 
acting 
168:23 
112:22 114:20 
120:13,19 
1 :7 38:4 42:20 
adult 
127:1 138:1 149:4 
abusing 
action 
87:25 88:2,20 97:23 
149:17 150:11 
97:13 
215:8,12 
126:6 
155:9 166: 11 
accent 
active 
adults 
176:12 177:4 
123:8,10,12,14,18 
125:11 127:17 
98:7 
189:19 197:15 
accept 
activities 
advance 
against 
83:24 119:4 
22:12 
70:11 
4:9,13,20 5:5,11 
accepted 
actual 
advertising 
62:14 124:9 170:24 
169:19 
22:15 23:20 66:16 
9:22 
age 
access 
87:24 127:17 
affair 
39:21 89:6 93:2 
20:10 168:16 180:18 
140:11175:21 
199:10 
97:15,20 103:11 
185:14 
actually 
affect 
116:21 120:9,12,18 
accidents 
15:4 21:422:6 31 :6 
70:3 
210:19 
91:11 
31:20 45:2 49:25 
affected 
agency 
accountants 
61:17 79:22 107:19 
37:9 66:24 191 :11 
13:9,20 127:22,23 
74:7 
112:8 130:1 133:1,8 affidavit 
189:17,22 190:7 
accu...

Page 2
Page 2
ago
6:15,15,21 15:7
20:15 64:5 90:7
163:12 194:17
agreement
3:18,22,23 4:5,7
169:16,16 170:10
188:21
Ah
200:7
ahead
3:5 21:15 31:24 41:1
44:20,20 55:8 60:5
62:3 65:10 70:12,16
71:10 84:12 91:22
100:24,24 125:7
129:16 133:11
138:19 144:17,17
144:19,20 165:6
air
36:3,3 158:14
airplanes
198:22
AK-47
167:16
Alan
155:6,8,17 156:15
173:19
Alberto
140:15
alerted
194:13
Alessi
80:1 185:3,10
Alessi's
123:7,9
Alfredo
167:12,15,23 168:7
171:18,22,23,24
173:12,18 174:15
Alhambra
140:20
Alice
143:8
aliens
192:7
align
209:22
allegation
139:6,7,7
allegations
73:22 74:23 120:5
205:15
alleged
172:21 173:2 174:4
allegedly
139:23 166:25 167:1
172:1
allow
186:9
allowed
15:15 75:18 137:2,4
170:2 189:7
almost
4:6 50:10,17 69:25
70:1 110:24,25
alone
17:10 35:20 106:4,5
106:15
along
25:13 27:13 120:3
163:23 174:17
187:15
already
6:3 10:13 12:12
131:15 190:21
alright
69:13
also
9:2,10 10:1,2 12:10
25:3 44:11 49:21
60:11,21 73:23
82:10 87:16 91:25
93:19 112:12,19
115:4 117:10 126:5
140:20 143:23,24
147:24 156:12
162:7,9 170:12,14
174:5 176:1 181:23
195:4 196:18,20,20
203:4 207:16,17
212:4,11,22 213:19
altered
115:3,6,8,14,22
always
9:13,17 13:17 17:2
24:9 38:17 51:13
58:11,11,16 86:15
97:19 105:1,4
110:22 111:18,19
111:20,21,22,23
112:3 157:25
195:19
am
2:3 40:25 91:9 92:14
98:19 136:21
155:18 166:11
201:13 205:18
208:19 215:6,9
amazing
33:3 158:11
Amelia
158:6,7
America
8:19,20,23 9:9 10:14
12:21 17:10 123:12
160:9
American
10:20 123:15
amount
28:2,12 47:14 139:11
202:7
an
10:19 13:14,16 16:13
17:10 33:3 36:2,3
37:16 39:21,24 52:3
66:16 74:15,15 76:6
79:19 85:10 87:25
88:2,20 95:10 97:23
106:8 110:25 111:1
111:20,21 112:3
113:19 118:4,14
123:7,10,15 125:14
126:5 134:1 138:17
141:3,3,5,6 142:14
143:25 148:3
152:11 158:7,7
163:24 167:16
174:14 178:5
180:13 185:14,16
186:8 189:21,22
193:21 205:3
206:17 212:8
Andersson
23:20 130:13
Andrew
101:9 132:14,17,22
132:23 133:18,24
134:12,16,20,22
135:1,13,21 136:1,9
136:13,18 137:7,10
137:23 139:11
141:14 144:8
145:11 148:5,16,20
153:24 ...

Page 3
Page 3
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120:22 137:4 152:3
152:23 186:9,15
203:3 204:10
answers
37:16 126:20 193:15
anticipation
70:9
anybody
7:19 14:20 81:7,7,9
81:13 88:11 93:6
107:22 108:8,10
125:11 156:25,25
173:3 193:17
202:22 203:2,5
204:23,24
anyone
7:6,16 31:16 47:7
89:16 171:8 184:24
anything
3:25 4:3 14:2 17:4
35:12 37:13 42:2
50:13 53:15 57:4
60:2 63:19 74:8
82:5 85:8 89:17
108:9 113:14
125:11 127:25
141:14 152:5
156:21 157:1,8
159:1 176:23 178:1
187:20 191:7,9,13
191:15 194:19
195:18 198:23
202:12 203:3,5
207:20 209:5,11
211:12 213:14
anyway
20:9 33:16 44:1,23
44:24 57:7 126:19
131:10,12 133:23
137:5,7 158:17
184:12 194:5,20
208:23 210:17
anyways
43:17
anywhere
77:1,19 80:13 182:21
183:18
apart
179:20 183:12
apartment
12:11 18:5 20:3
148:4
apocryphal
29:3,6
apologize
124:12 177:5
appeal
188:12
appear
107:5
APPEARANCES
1:4
apply
5:3 125:23
appreciate
57:25 93:16 96:1
192:19 211:4
approached
170:21
appropriate
76:24 78:15
approximately
64:5 134:1,6 141:3
154:6 201:23
April
10:14 166:24
aquatic
157:25
architects
110:22
architectural
140:21
archives
200:18
are
3:9 11:6 13:21 16:21
30:3 31:21,22 35:6
35:23 42:17,18
47:15 49:10 53:6
62:16,16,18 63:4
69:8,19 74:23 79:19
86:22 89:3 90:11
91:6 99:5 105:22
107:14 109:12
111:11 117:9 122:9
134:20,23 136:22
146:6,19 147:24
166:6,20,21 167:5
167:23 176:10
177:16 179:14
184:15,16 188:4
190:14 194:10
197:16,21 210:20
211:22
area
76:20 99:15 113:17
208:3
areas
54:7 211:22 213:25
around
14:7 22:20,24 42:23
46:17 47:20 48:17
49:2 65:21 81:7
110:1,6 119:2 121:3
136:6 138:12
140:24 143:3 153:6
156:22 157:11
176:18 177:4 180:7
183:23 189:6
191:17 196:11
arranged
26:15 133:22
arrest
40:19 52:2,15 93:24
96:13,17 212:25
arrested
24:15 40:21,23 42:10
53:12 54:1 96:12
119:1 207:25 210:9
213:5
arriving
112:16
article
178:22,24 179:24
articles
179:4
arts
94:17
aside
80:3 84:2 86:20
116:21 136:6
146:16 206:7
ask
2:3 4:1 7:5,17 8:1
15:14 16:8 43:2
71:19 89:13 92:24
110:6 114:13 120:8
123:11 124:2
133:10 137:25
151:18 153:10
177:24 178:11,13
1...

Page 4
Page 4
2:6 185:14 186:8
Associate
1:7 2:17
associated
50:15 81:24 151:17
assume
30:10 76:2 122:12
197:7
assumed
97:19
assuming
97:17
astonished
152:5
attached
29:17
attack
146:23
attend
149:3,4,16 150:2
attention
51:13 73:21 195:20
attorney
1:6,8 2:12,18 156:11
187:13 192:10
215:10
attorneys
7:14
attractive
154:20,24
audio
215:3,6
August
168:8,14,17
Australia
145:5
Australian
123:17
authenticity
27:9
avoid
85:24
avoiding
96:16
aware
42:5,7 63:4 75:12
78:18 80:6 121:22
166:8,11 167:21
168:1 176:25
away
12:6,14 86:19
awkward
159:1
Ayotte
215:2,14
a.m
2:10 40:6,6,9
B
back
5:17 7:9 8:7 9:14
12:16 14:21 17:19
19:6,23,25,25 22:13
22:18 24:14,22
36:12 40:19 46:17
49:8 51:6 54:6
57:22 58:12 60:10
61:20 67:4 76:9
77:3 88:16 90:6
96:21 97:12 99:3,14
109:7 116:14 117:3
120:23 121:9,12
129:11 132:12
143:15 145:14,18
160:3 162:8 168:13
170:5 207:2
background
13:12 145:12
backwards
10:14
bad
128:3 131:20
badly
206:9
Bahamas
133:20
bank
16:2 42:2 130:4
banks
15:2
bar
176:3,4
Barak
190:23 195:10 196:2
196:2
Barclays
67:14
Barings
130:4,4
Barr
191:21 192:3,11
193:15,17
base
171:4
based
5:9 99:4 110:20
133:3 197:7
basically
23:1 40:12 72:5 98:1
169:8 172:20
175:24 178:6
basis
57:23 140:22 157:21
171:9 204:3
bath
142:14,15
bathrobe
102:22 157:10
bathroom
76:19 139:14 142:14
142:21,24 143:1,5
bathtub
143:24
Beach
21:3,5,17 39:17
42:15 43:10 44:6,12
44:13,18 45:3 77:14
78:25 79:3,6,6
82:14 90:14 105:20
116:18,20 125:20
126:3 151:8 161:4
162:21 174:6
Bear
15:1,1,23 55:4,17,18
56:16,21
Beard
1:10 2:20
became
20:6 23:20 27:16,16
27:22 39:6 40:21
64:12 65:25 72:24
85:4,6,6 92:10
105:10 115:17
130:14 137:19
151:12 167:21
168:1 173:13
199:17,18 201:15
become
38:25 96:6
becomes
96:4 167:6,7,13
becoming
105:3
bed
21:13,19,20 31:1
113:15
bedroom
31:1 76:20 113:19
been
3:17 4:2 6:24,25 8:24
9:2 10:21 11:1 13:7
13:16 19:7 20:4
23:21 24:20 26:9,21
28:24 33:16 34:21
34:21 38:24 39:8,9
39:24 43:19 45:13
52:1 53:4,22 57:4
71:4 73:19 75:3,15
79:16 81:17,22,25
81:25 84:9 87:10
91:24 93:18,19
94:1...

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Page 5
196:12,21 197:13
197:17 202:7 205:3
207:1,5,21 208:7
before
2:13 3:12,16 8:13
10:6,8 14:19 16:3
42:11 52:1 53:7
55:21 59:2 71:4
83:12,20 85:16,16
97:7,11 127:2
129:20 130:8,9
133:19 134:22
137:1 138:7 139:19
152:16 154:8,12
164:3 170:8 208:22
209:7 212:10
befriended
86:25
began
75:25
begin
27:20
beginning
20:12 23:12 47:15
68:21,22 91:21
104:10 108:4
112:21,23 166:17
begins
166:17
behaving
210:14
behavior
111:13 115:14
behind
113:18 142:8 143:21
170:4
being
2:10 27:23 31:22
37:23 45:16 52:11
79:4 99:5 101:19
114:19 131:19
135:1,9 136:2 137:9
137:10 143:4 148:3
148:21 153:14
164:2 182:20 209:4
belief
13:16 120:6 188:17
204:3
believe
7:10,13 13:13 20:11
22:25 23:18 26:1
32:5 39:9 43:24
45:1 52:21 55:5
62:24,24 73:11,15
73:25 78:11 79:14
84:21 85:4,6 86:16
90:25 93:24 94:1,14
94:20,23 95:6 97:12
103:18,21,25 104:5
104:19 105:16
106:11 115:8,9,12
117:23 119:14,17
119:22 120:16
123:8,15 126:6
131:16 133:17,19
139:8 145:1 146:18
147:5 153:2 157:9
166:16 168:22
170:11 171:18
173:23 176:4 190:9
204:2 205:7,9,14
206:15,17 207:10
207:13,16 208:4
210:12,14 213:24
believed
14:25 32:8 53:22
118:5
belonged
19:10
belongs
167:3
benefit
84:17,17,18
benefits
32:21 151:3
besides
154:23 199:25
best
12:21 18:11 24:8
26:25 124:16
129:24 134:23
185:7
better
82:24 120:21 122:4
132:11
between
20:22 28:8 32:14
48:8 50:7 51:5
65:14 75:17 87:25
120:10 146:13
159:2 168:16 174:4
beyond
117:12 138:24 191:9
big
8:23 25:19 54:2
104:18 131:11,12
138:1 142:7 149:7
162:9 175:7
bigger
138:17
bill
49:14 181:14 192:11
193:15,17
billion
57:18,20 61:3,18,19
61:20
billionaire
58:18,18 72:5 171:5
binders
82:11
birthday
69:17,18 140:4,12
141:1,8,13 147:15
177:7,8,13 178:1,8
178:10 179:22
194:18
bit
5:10 8:5 14:7 17:20
96:18,19 109:8
132:11 137:5
157:12,19 159:1
163:13 190:3,16
191:18 206:4
214:18
bits
59:16
black
63:25 64:9,19 67:5
70:19 73:8 164:14
166:5 174:12
176:19
Blackhawk
201:15
blackmail
73:23 74:10,15,19
75:11,19 84:1 87:2
88:16,25 99:16
171:5 172:22 177:1
205:15 206:15
207:20
blackmail...

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174:23 175:20
176:19 177:7,13,16
177:21,23 178:12
179:4,11 180:8
181:4 184:4 185:17
192:3 194:18,20
boom
176:7
BOP
204:17 205:2
borders
159:6
bore
16:15
bored
92:11,12
boring
210:23
Boris
182:2,7,7
born
29:18
Boston
156:17,18
both
15:3,13 31:6 61:25
68:2,3 82:4 87:11
90:12 104:24 114:5
146:22 161:25
168:4
bothered
133:6
bought
9:11 26:22 36:2
157:20,21 158:12
158:12
boyfriend
10:22 97:5,10 150:10
150:13 169:3 171:2
184:19
boyfriends
118:15
Brad
146:9 166:24 167:1,6
167:21 168:1,5,9,12
168:15 169:23
170:1,6,12,25 171:1
171:20 172:18
173:8,17 174:9
176:15
bragged
126:22
bragging
128:10
Brazil
158:14
break
38:3,6 40:2,5,6,12,12
102:2 109:7,11
163:11 165:16,20
165:22 166:4
193:25 194:1,3,5,8
203:11
brief
196:12
briefcase
79:4,5,7
briefly
5:24 8:5,20 16:9
157:12 198:19
bright
118:13
bring
4:14,20
Britain
190:17
British
13:14 123:13,14,17
130:20 190:15
196:24
broad
93:17
broadest
67:24 97:16
broke
95:11 158:17 159:11
171:9
broken
10:20,22
Brooklyn
69:24
brother
142:16 192:21 193:7
193:13
brotherly
193:10
brother's
141:2,7
brought
96:23 111:1 122:8
123:13 165:9
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77:8
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159:19
budget
35:21
budgets
35:25 36:1,1
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80:23,25
built
76:13
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128:6,8,21,25 137:11
138:18 144:25
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175:5
burdened
124:16,17
Bureau
204:16,17 206:2
burp
142:11
business
10:16,17 13:23 14:6
14:22 21:10 28:24
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businesses
12:16,20 29:12,14
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13:21 58:8 73:9
businessmen
190:18
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163:21 197:24
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80:1 167:12
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12:10
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26:19
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3:17,23 13:20 20:3
27:13 30:19 31:22
32:7 39:12 42:17,19
45:8 52:1 56:19
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89:18 94:18 109:21
117:8 120:19
124:17 127:6
131:16 136:14
138:11 140:10
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169:7 170:19
172:20 180:23
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211:24 213:21
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C
cabana
79:16
call
17:7 36:4 40:23
41:18 45:2,3,7
63:11 79:5 115:6
125:12 149:12
166:25 167:22
185:...

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Page 7
79:5 91:1 94:18
96:15 102:13
133:21 146:8,9,11
158:23,23 163:4,5
164:14 166:24
167:12 168:17
169:9 170:8 177:19
177:21,24 189:9
192:4
calling
125:10
calls
50:19 51:9
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10:15 15:4 18:21
19:20 24:14 26:20
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48:5 49:15 55:9,9
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95:8 96:20 97:1,4,4
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158:20 160:9 172:1
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185:5 186:1 192:14
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78:11,11,12 79:12,13
79:17 80:4 81:1
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78:16,17,18 79:7,14
80:6,13,18,19,21
81:4
can
4:20 5:8 6:16 8:6
11:8 12:25,25 13:1
16:17 17:14 18:9
19:17,18 25:5,6,7
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68:8 69:4 71:1 72:4
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79:21,25 84:5 85:8
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132:20 133:2 134:2
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148:19,23 152:18
164:20 169:14
172:8 177:18
189:18 190:23
191:23 193:25
194:3 204:23
205:19 210:24
211:5,17,20 214:4
214:12
cannot
4:9,13 95:4 112:24
180:19
can't
5:11 10:15 35:20
36:18 43:18 44:2
54:15 57:3 69:3
71:15,16 72:25
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109:4 111:4 114:1,8
133:14 141:17,17
142:21,23 148:18
149:24 152:5,12
162:24 163:3,5
187:3 201:19 214:2
Capital
71:8
car
38:25 39:8 57:19
card
178:25
care
46:11 48:18,20 87:1
136:18 140:8
careful
204:21
cares
171:8
Caribbean
77:11
Carrier
36:5
carry
173:1
carte
61:16
cartel
57:9,10,19
cartels
58:5
case
4:2,14 5:4,5,5,11
6:24 7:1,8 8:15 17:6
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46:22,24 47:6 51:23
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146:21 168:23
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cases
81:21
Castro
201:21
catch
80:4
catchall
202:6
categorically
14:18 148:19,23
Cathy
215:2,14
cattle
27:5
cause
75:4
caused
206:10
caveat
127:1
caveats
126:1
Cayne
15:3,13 101:3
celebrate
178:7
celebration
141:9
certain
19:24 176:20
certainly
13:12 14:1 15:23
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61:25 76:9 88:6
105:11 106:16
107:16 128:17
130:19,22 134:22
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certificate
93:3 215:1
certify
215:2
chalk
135:10
challenging
27:3
chance
5:24
change
20:21 37:20 116...

Page 8
Page 8
40:22 51:20 93:18
119:1 186:23 212:6
chat
214:18
chatted
3:14
check
38:21 133:6 140:7
checked
93:1,2
cheeses
135:10
Chelsea
150:5
chief
4:14 5:12 182:1
185:8,14
child
24:10 32:11 125:12
126:3 157:24
children
32:4 89:3
choose
175:25
chose
210:22
Churcher
146:9
CIA
127:22
cigar
201:18,19
Circles
173:14
circumstances
212:25
civil
81:21 82:6 166:20
167:13,24 169:4,6
171:15 172:3,4
208:12,13 209:6
claimed
119:7
clarify
121:21
clarity's
84:18
clash
158:25
classic
136:14,15
clean
39:14
clear
30:25 93:5 114:13
145:6,14 203:4
clearly
126:2,2,5
clever
38:7
cli
56:20
client
6:9 59:11,13 70:22
72:18 74:12 82:22
88:4 99:21 133:7,8
164:15,24
clients
59:6,7,7,8 65:1 66:20
69:7 71:13 72:15,18
73:21 83:2 87:1
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client's
56:24 60:1
Clinton
33:11,11 34:11,13,19
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Clinton's
150:2,5 198:7,7
close
24:25 25:19 31:14
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134:19,20,21,24
150:21,23,24 159:3
180:14 183:9
190:19,20 193:1,4
closed
113:9,17
closer
193:11
clothed
113:24
clothes
29:19,19 39:14 97:25
98:1
clothing
82:15
club
106:1
clunky
135:15
cognition
122:22
colleagues
194:13
collected
168:1 174:6
Colombia
200:22 201:8,12,15
combination
61:25 172:6
come
8:23 9:14,20 11:22
12:16 17:19 22:13
22:18 28:22 36:12
44:6 46:17 48:4
49:8 56:24 58:12
60:10 67:3 69:19
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57:7 97:24 122:4
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comfortable
38:15 136:19
coming
57:16 88:16 90:6
120:12 136:13
151:12 166:21
213:9
comments
189:1
commercial
80:23,25
commissary
205:21
committed
193:23
common
152:6
communicate
126:10
communicating
135:21
communication
24:20 208:11 209:17
communications
208:11
companies
164:5
companionship
210:20
company
8:24,25 9:4 48:15,17
56:9 210:22
compilation
174:23
compiled
184:18
complained
203:8
complaint
167:18,20 168:3,4
complete
211:5
completely
58:3 110:14
complex
35:11
component
49:23 204:8,14
compromising
81:8 82:3 84:1
computer
8...

Page 9
Page 9
172:5 185:16
computers
33:3
con
47:9
conceivable
141:16 149:2
concerned
17:10 104:25
conclude
214:20
concluded
214:24
condition
21:24 22:1,2,3,6,9
118:22 191:7,9,10
conditioning
36:3,3
conduct
22:15 109:21 116:10
212:19
conference
181:20,21,22
confidence
38:11
confident
164:2
confidential
167:8,9,10
confirming
6:18
confused
172:15 173:10
congregated
141:8
Congressman
100:14
connect
135:11
connection
15:23 16:1,1
connections
128:15
conscientious
73:20
conscious
161:12
consensual
98:24
consider
80:15,15
conspiracy
213:21
constant
111:10
constantly
116:24
construction
35:14,18,21 110:23
constructions
49:15
contact
53:21 75:17 88:13
89:9 119:3 189:15
189:21
contacted
52:1 185:21 186:20
contacts
43:14
contained
110:25
contains
167:3
contaminated
184:13
contaminating
196:21
contemporaneously
25:15 171:21
context
45:21 108:12 118:18
127:4,12 162:5
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contexts
93:23
continue
25:21 30:16 47:6,9
75:20 109:15
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continued
30:18
continuing
40:7 109:13 194:10
contract
67:2
contracts
66:17
contractual
66:21
contribute
177:22 178:13,16
contributed
213:25
controlled
172:20
controller
73:5
conversation
3:21 15:6 61:16
104:10 152:14
conversations
62:17 81:12 164:12
186:23 192:3,15
202:22
cool
126:24 128:16
Cooper
34:15
cooperating
167:7,7
cooperation
3:22
coordinate
177:18 209:9
coordinated
177:20 209:13
coordinating
209:20
copy
3:17 6:10 175:6
cordial
105:1
corner
79:12
Corporate
9:1
correct
24:24 58:8 63:14
76:3 78:14 83:4
152:21,22 197:7
203:15,24
corroborate
211:12,13
corroborating
120:22 140:6 145:2
corroboration
165:12
corroborative
165:9
could
5:15 7:17,20 12:13
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couldn't
19:24 62:1 116:13
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counsel
2:24 3:1,3 215:7,10
count
23:14,15
country
19:25 116:19 140:5
141:2 149:1
c...

Page 10
Page 10
136:16 137:7
186:14 206:13
213:17 214:14
court
169:18 180:19
covered
190:14 211:21
covert
127:19
crash
38:25 39:8
crazy
126:18
create
212:17
created
146:14,17,19 171:13
173:8,11 184:2
207:2
creating
55:6 168:25 170:16
credentials
93:2
credenza
83:16
crime
4:25 89:3,4
criminal
5:5,5 82:8 167:18,20
168:3,4
critical
49:22
cross
5:8,15 93:22
crossed
93:7
Cuba
201:9,12,16
Cuomo
154:1
Cuomo's
153:24 154:3
curious
69:15
CVRA
37:9 146:21 169:23
170:8,9,20
Czechoslovakia
10:2
Czechoslovakian
104:24
D
dad
10:2,4,17 12:9 13:19
15:4,11 16:4 159:24
177:17
daily
9:12,22 43:1
Dalton
54:25 55:1,2 191:24
Dan
101:1
dance
176:4
dangerous
91:10
dark
123:4,9
date
1:2 2:9 71:5 79:19,22
79:23 101:23 131:2
131:3,4,19 133:2,8
134:1,2
dated
133:9
dates
95:23 101:17
dating
7:8 11:1 18:15,18
32:23 35:5 38:6
130:12
daughter
58:17
daughter's
150:3
David
1:13 2:22,23,23 12:7
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23:16 85:12 114:25
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116:23 168:19
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72:24
dead
206:9
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26:22 61:11 62:9
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95:12 96:3
dealing
26:23 163:21
death
8:10 12:23 53:15
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debacle
12:18
debates
169:17
decade-long
114:21
December
94:11,25 95:19
decently
131:8
decided
110:12 159:4
deciding
42:14
decline
39:11
declined
16:20
decorate
13:1 21:12
decorated
76:14 143:1
decorating
18:5
decorator
43:13 49:22 140:16
decorators
43:14
deep
158:16 196:14
deeply
214:1
defamation
208:13
defend
37:17 84:23 209:25
Defense
127:22
define
76:18,24 85:10
107:12
defining
75:3
definitely
45:10 50:21 82:13
86:12,13 111:12
112:21 114:4 153:7
153:7 155:16
209:18,19,20,24
210:3
definition
13:25
definitively
31:5 214:3
degree
209:16,17 210:1
deliberately
189:24 190:1
MAGNA9 
LEGAL SERVICES 

Page 11
Page 11
Dempster
137:15
denied
116:13
deny
72:24
Department
1:1 19:21 143:20
deposed
168:8
deposition
168:2,9,11,13,14
depositions
167:23
Deputy
1:6,7,10 2:12,18
dereliction
204:16
Dershowitz
155:6,11 156:10,21
157:5 173:20
describe
55:7 59:14 98:23
141:23 192:25
described
57:25 136:10 172:10
describes
94:21
describing
110:16 185:19
description
54:4 86:2 142:19
deserves
84:25
design
180:23 211:24
designers
110:23
desires
115:22
desk
79:10,11
detail
66:23
details
16:17 51:17 66:15
determine
125:10
develop
85:14 111:5,8,8
device
166:1
devious
118:20
Diana
131:15,15,20 133:3
Diana's
129:24
didn't
5:22 11:10 15:19
16:5 18:22 19:13
20:18 21:14 22:5
23:16,19 25:3,12,13
30:25 31:1,10,10
35:25 37:12,12
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48:17,20,21,21
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101:6,10 104:8
106:12 112:4 118:4
118:9,18,21 119:12
119:13,14,14,17,23
119:25,25 120:18
121:10,14 122:12
125:15 128:21
129:14 135:5
148:18 150:2
159:14 160:19
161:9 163:20 164:3
180:20 187:11,16
188:24 189:2,4
197:3 207:9 208:15
208:23 210:16
213:8
die
205:5 207:9
died
14:19 44:2 52:12
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Diego
1:7 2:16,17,17 145:6
145:11 152:8
195:10,12
difference
120:10 137:9
different
5:6,7,14 30:5,6 37:1
47:18 90:12 110:14
114:16 168:3 175:5
188:19 206:5
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differently
210:14
difficult
112:9
difficulty
118:4
diminished
49:12
dinner
33:10,14,14,23 34:22
140:1,2 155:4
199:13
directly
5:3 187:24 195:5
Dirt
29:18
disagreement
56:17
disclosure
18:11
discovery
24:18 81:18 83:6,13
145:15,16 179:5,15
179:16,20 180:7,12
183:24 209:10
discuss
85:8
discussed
87:11 166:5
discussion
187:15
disgraced
166:21
disgusting
139:17 203:5
dispute
135:3 147:17
disrespected
135:24
distance
40:18
distinct
156:14
distinction
87:22,25
distinguishing
98:7
distributor
201:18
District
52:14,25 53:2,19
146:10 172:6,24
175:19 186:19
divorce
200:20
doctors
39:13
Docu
131:1
document
180:16 200:19
documentable
131:1
documented
180:19
documents
52:7 171:21 172:8
176:1 180:15
209...

Page 12
Page 12
5:2 13:17 32:19
37:14 48:22 50:18
96:10 118:23
123:16 124:24
140:9 148:7
doing
2:8 42:18 44:7 59:5
64:19 76:3,13 78:1
85:13 86:22 93:19
96:23 109:4 115:7
126:25 141:14
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202:12
DOJ
169:17
dollars
35:20 57:18,20 61:3
Dominic
129:25
Donald
9:23 173:21 178:24
191:21
done
108:9 126:14 156:25
164:4 195:1 202:24
203:6 211:8 213:7
door
76:25 80:16 81:2,3
113:18,18,20
dots
173:14
doubt
103:5,8 151:23
184:13
Doug
34:14
down
17:22 57:18 66:15
69:4,22 71:19
158:15 159:13,14
drama
12:22 50:14 51:13
159:13
drive
92:16 93:9
dropped
126:24
drove
208:17
drug
58:5 95:12 96:3
druggie
96:4,4
druggies
96:5
drugs
96:10 191:2
Dubin
23:21 24:5 70:21
71:11
Dubin's
70:24
Dublin
201:1
dump
180:16
duped
119:23
during
13:13 27:15 28:20
35:7 42:3,3 46:24
51:3 65:18 100:9
103:1 114:21
166:12 176:16
186:17 189:6,7,8
203:15,23
duties
90:23
duty
204:16
E
E
2:1,1
each
25:25 26:1 27:1,21
58:6 147:17,19,25
155:1 160:15
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Earhart
158:6,7
earlier
54:11 130:15 149:6
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early
7:9 48:9 59:4 68:19
68:20 91:5,7 95:3
99:19 100:7,10
104:10,11 109:18
110:16,20 111:15
111:24 128:17
134:9 160:3 210:13
earth
123:16 143:16
158:22,23
Easily
53:10
easy
207:21
edging
11:2
education
118:14
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146:9 166:24 167:1,6
167:21 168:1,9,12
168:15 169:23
170:1,6,12,19,25
171:1,20 172:18
173:8,17 174:9
176:15
Edward's
168:5
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92:1,18 170:22
Ehud
190:23 195:10 196:8
either
8:13 20:4 24:17 42:1
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126:10,25 133:16
152:6 162:25 164:6
170:23 180:1
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electrician
78:4
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76:15
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65:11
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29:25 34:8 49:18
67:6 72:20 75:21
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94:23 96:9 97:6
138:13 170:5
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185:10,11,13
193:17,24 195:1,1
202:22,25 204:24
eludes
54:24
email
24:20 51:16
emails
25:7
embarrassed
119:14
embassy
19:9
emergency
47:6
employed
13:18,20 215:7,10
employee
132:11 215:10
encompassing
60:7
encourage
88:3
encouraged
32:5 87:5 89:7
encouraging
87:2
end
31:19 36:15 48:1
80:1
ended
26:18 33:4 44:5
47:17,20 65:25
10...

Page 13
Page 13
ends
46:22
enforceable
188:1
enforcement
16:22 41:7,23 52:1
80:4 127:23 186:20
engaged
10:21 95:9
engagement
95:10
engaging
11:25 113:23
England
9:9 12:23 27:23
137:10
English
11:23 31:19 134:19
144:8 162:8
enjoined
188:6
enjoyable
210:21
enjoyed
155:3
enough
28:19 60:16 193:5
entertainment
149:9
entire
20:10 60:20 70:2
89:15 92:14 105:5
170:16
entirety
94:13
entourage
111:23 112:4 113:2
149:14
Eppinger
94:19
Epstein's
33:12 45:16 54:12
59:22 61:6 72:15,18
90:8 100:9 105:7
107:10 111:13
136:9 155:25
156:10 162:23
167:12,24 169:1,4,6
170:17 171:24
172:7 176:10
182:14,18 192:20
193:6 197:14 209:7
equity
29:13
erection
118:4
escaping
9:18 55:14
especially
71:25 88:19,20 139:9
establish
28:23
establishment
39:17
estate
12:9 26:10,14
European
9:6,8 159:23
Eva
23:20,21 24:5,15
38:15 43:8 70:24
71:11 130:13
evaluate
212:3,20 214:4
even
7:11 14:10 15:15,19
16:8,10 21:18 24:12
24:19 37:4 41:17
45:17,18,24 46:2
47:13 52:5,10 63:23
63:23 64:25 66:20
76:2,8 78:15 88:2
89:6 96:6 97:23
104:7 112:3 116:20
119:7,22 125:14
126:6 127:19
135:25 138:17
141:12,17 142:24
147:24 157:9 169:6
171:15 172:12
176:17 185:6
206:20 208:21
209:4
event
16:21,25 106:8
131:11,12,25 133:3
133:5,19 148:3
152:11
events
139:19 162:7,12
eventually
56:8 90:14
ever
4:14 5:3,4 7:7,9,10
8:13 20:13 23:17
30:1 41:8,23 56:10
74:9,14 81:5,6,11
81:25,25 85:21
89:11,16,18 93:1,21
99:3 103:17 104:5
105:16,19,20
106:10,17,20
107:17 108:7,24
109:4 126:9 147:24
148:22 149:24,25
152:16 153:18,20
156:20,24,25 157:3
157:5,8,9,9 160:21
161:7,8 173:2
182:20 183:17
186:9 188:23 189:6
189:15,20 190:5,5,6
190:6 191:1 192:10
192:14 193:16
196:6 197:10 200:3
201:5,5,6,7 202:17
203:2,5,8,8,8
every
26:9,9 70:2 94:22
97:3 110:24,24,25
114:25 116:22
117:7 161:6
everybody
2:3,14 34:2 59:12
76:4 138:13 174:12
178:12 185:12,16
everyone
97:1,3
everything
6:24 20:7 24:8 25:18
38:13 49:3,10 66:24
73:10 85:9 86:14
87:11 94:23 139:3
143:10 157:25
158:19 159:17
170:5 171:7 180:20
211:3 212:1 213:23
everywhere
131:7 161:6
evid...

Page 14
Page 14
173:13 174:13
175:15,18
existed
83:8,12
existence
84:4 164:16
exists
78:11 82:1
expeditions
158:6
experience
118:19
experienced
204:14
explain
8:14 16:9 26:25
47:19 120:23
143:24 157:18
exploration
158:8
explorations
157:22
exploratory
157:22 158:3
explorers
158:16
extent
18:8 25:22 26:23
187:19 207:10
exterior
78:17
extort
81:14
extraordinary
105:3 200:17,18
extrapolated
96:19
extravagances
29:23
F
F
154:15
fabulous
158:5
fact
4:6 9:23 24:2 25:1
64:16 74:25 84:3
140:24 160:9 163:2
169:6
failure
205:2
fair
114:9 117:14 204:20
204:24
faithful
116:15
fake
145:13 146:7 147:2,4
147:4,6,23 168:25
168:25 170:16
172:12 176:5 184:8
fall
13:24
falling
63:5,10
false
4:21 120:6 153:7
family
8:13 12:16,19,20
14:22 24:11 29:12
29:15 38:9,17 101:5
128:15 129:8
130:19,22 132:17
143:14 146:23
163:15,18,20
190:16 195:25
famous
59:7,11 83:25 102:13
130:1 145:8 149:17
164:13
famous/politicians
100:8
fancied
154:17,21
fancy
129:22
fancying
154:24
far
14:9 36:21 41:25
42:4 51:25 64:13,16
65:13 68:10 98:21
98:23 104:14,25
108:5 109:3 132:17
136:8 143:15 184:5
202:6
farmed
173:3
fashion
160:7,8,8,18
fast
118:25
father
8:14 9:2,10,13,24
12:14 13:7,12,22
14:5,19 15:2 16:10
16:18 17:14 19:8
29:11,17 104:20,22
163:13,14 164:4
177:13 195:18,20
father's
12:18,22 28:23 164:5
favors
93:13
FBI
1:9 2:7 4:23 41:13
76:8 115:9 123:3
126:10,11,12,17
143:20 145:4,23
166:25 167:18
168:4,17
FBI's
167:25 168:20
federal
4:22 42:1
federally
51:20
feds
41:10 188:20
fee
57:21 61:12
feels
19:2,2
feet
114:12,17 142:1
fell
33:1
fellatio
94:23
felt
18:17 20:7 43:4,7
67:1 74:4,8 135:24
135:24 139:17
female
72:5 87:10
Ferguson
132:23 133:21
few
3:13 46:18 84:8
95:11 105:11 129:4
163:10 168:19
179:13 194:17
199:13 211:2,6,8
fianc
95:10,12
Fidel
201:21
fights
169:16
Figueroa
97:8,9
file
169:23 170:9
filed
37:10 170:18
filing
170:19
finances
60:21
financial
42:2 54:12 56:8
146:20
financially
27:25 30:5,6 73:5
215:11
financing
71:8
find
12:25 46:5 49:24
50:1 51:14 57:20
72:4,5,10 88:12
DOJ REDACTION
MAGN...

Page 15
Page 15
90:16,20 92:3,13,14
92:18 105:2 112:9
112:10 123:10
133:1 134:3 170:22
175:14 184:4 185:8
210:17,19,23 214:1
finding
112:1 127:2,7 154:23
fine
17:14 22:5 69:14
86:18 101:25
136:17 149:20
214:13,16
finer
190:4
finish
36:14 46:20 138:20
144:20,21 174:7
finished
144:14
fire
67:3 137:18
fired
56:17 80:1
firm
56:8 79:23,25 166:21
166:23 168:19
170:15 171:1 176:1
first
8:6 26:1 27:7 42:13
45:15 54:10,10,13
70:18 90:25 95:7,8
96:23 97:3 110:24
117:15 118:8,10
119:11 123:3
132:20 137:13
140:3 142:14
146:20 147:8 151:1
160:10 162:2
163:18 164:23
165:14 169:7 203:3
firsthand
63:12 187:13 206:20
fit
146:1 214:5
five
95:13 96:11 172:20
flat
61:12,19 116:9,12
132:23 142:21
148:4
flew
33:19 113:17 198:22
201:15
flight
25:6 87:14 146:1
169:11
flights
30:10
floating
183:23
floor
29:18 79:11,15
142:22,22,24
floors
142:4
Florida
40:23 146:11 186:19
187:13 193:18
flown
33:13 34:1
fluent
49:20
fly
24:21 30:9
flying
113:2 116:18,19
182:20 183:18
focus
102:4 116:1 120:18
159:4 211:24
focused
68:16 109:16 120:19
149:5,18 213:19
folks
74:18 84:5 88:3
178:6,23 190:17
202:9,11 207:10
follow
88:11
follow-on
211:19
food
102:2
foot
20:3,3
force
71:23
foreign
190:14
Forester
72:23 133:7 156:4
forgive
193:22
forgotten
129:18 194:14
formal
13:19 14:1
formally
2:13 13:18
formed
138:11
former
19:9 22:21 167:12
191:24 192:10
199:3 200:21
forms
22:12
fortune
19:15
forward
20:23 118:25 146:12
forwards
10:14
fought
189:3
found
11:25 16:13 19:6,8
19:16 92:10 158:15
193:13 208:13,14
foundation
54:8 158:9
founded
157:16
founder
33:2
foundered
30:20
four
68:24 95:13 172:21
200:9
frame
118:18 120:23
France
158:14
Francisco
183:8,9
frankly
86:21
fraud
28:22 73:10,24 74:3
fraudulent
184:14
free
20:10 29:9
French
49:20,20,21,22
frequency
109:25 110:17
frequently
176:18
Friday
214:22
friend
24:8 33:12,12 74:15
111:21 129:24
135:15 151:7 183:9
198:14 201:17
friendly
9:24 15:2 56:18
65:25 105:13,13
107:14 110:8
134:22 151:12,20
162:9,13,15 181:25
182:6 193:1,5
195:15 198:18
199:11,14
friends
13:4,5...

Page 16
Page 16
137:20 151:9,10
152:8 162:24 183:7
195:24 199:15,17
199:18,21 201:15
friendship
107:11 134:25
137:12 182:12
friend-family
43:5
front
76:25 80:16 81:2,3
frozen
20:4
full
9:14 18:11 30:24
38:6 75:2 139:16
fun
26:14 143:3,7 155:2
functioning
30:14
fund
28:14,16,16
fundamentally
210:23
funk
73:10
funky
92:20
funny
70:17
further
123:21 215:9
future
5:5
G
game
98:13
garage
80:16
Garden
11:8
gate
80:16
Gates
181:14,20 182:9
Gateway
33:3
gave
13:1 19:25 145:4
181:21,23
geez
119:9
general
1:6,8 2:12,18 27:1
30:14 37:24 38:4
42:21 90:22 184:22
192:10
generally
8:7 114:14 126:12
152:3
generations
143:14
generosity
28:3
generous
38:19,21
genesis
158:20 159:7 164:19
165:6
gentleman
107:23
Geo
158:10 159:16
Geographic
158:3
George
199:4,6 200:3
Georgina
162:8
get
32:4 69:4 82:10
85:17,18 89:8 96:17
97:25 102:2 113:10
114:23,25 115:1,15
117:13 125:6
127:14 150:18
165:12 188:9 189:2
208:17 209:24
gets
50:6 166:25
getting
10:21 47:14,16 84:6
88:19 90:9 113:23
117:7 135:4 157:8
161:8 183:20
187:16 190:7
193:18
giant
11:10 180:16
gift
62:6
Gifts
9:1
girl
11:4 58:12 76:6
94:16
girlfriend
8:18 10:19 23:20,24
31:2,19 58:10
197:23
girlfriends
10:24 31:4 197:14
girls
39:19 58:11 83:2,3
121:22 167:4 176:4
176:9,10 202:14
give
12:7 13:25 32:17
52:6 57:5,22 62:6
65:4,6 75:6,21
97:24 101:23
108:25,25 112:19
120:12,16 131:2
136:10 158:18
204:24 211:8 214:7
214:18
given
3:17 35:21 38:12
43:2 76:22 81:25
84:14 115:24
193:15 205:5
gives
4:7 212:8
giving
30:8 95:25 108:14
125:13 145:23
203:18
Glenn
24:5 70:21
go
3:5 5:24 9:8,16 18:11
19:5,25 21:2,11,15
22:22 23:13 26:10
26:13,15 27:23
31:24 40:19 41:1
44:20,20 49:1 54:6
55:8 57:20 60:5,8
62:3 65:10 70:12,16
70:16 71:10 73:9
84:12 91:22 92:18
95:20 100:24,24
106:3,13,15,16
108:25 110:19
113:10 120:23
121:9,12 125:6
129:11,16 133:11
133:17 137:2,4
138:19 139:6
140:18 144:15,17
144:17,19,19,19,19
144:20 145:24
161:3,4 162:7,11
163:10 165:6
God
57:6
God's
143:16
goes
8:4,7 10:25 46:22,24
47:3 57:12 167:17
169:18 205:23
going
2:3,14 3:15...

Page 17
Page 17
44:11 46:8 47:2
49:1,19 51:14 69:19
71:5,5 75:21 76:4,4
97:11,25 98:9,12
99:12,12,14 106:2
110:22 113:4
117:12 122:10
125:4 131:21 132:9
132:25 136:21,22
138:22 140:25
143:10 153:15
156:17 160:7
165:22 168:13
169:3,13 177:5,15
189:11 194:7,15
200:18 204:1
205:21 206:23
209:23 210:8
212:23
Golden
39:19
Goldsmith
101:1
golf
44:12
gone
35:22 42:25 133:20
187:10 212:1
good
2:5 3:8,10,12 39:25
43:15 55:5 64:9,12
69:23 71:17 73:20
75:24 84:1 91:16
103:23 109:12
113:12 124:4
135:14 137:19
151:6,9,10 163:7
186:2 187:17,18
188:17,25 189:2
193:18 194:4
209:20
gorgeous
142:9
gosh
55:6
got
6:6 10:23,24 24:5,7
27:20 45:2,3 54:14
57:8,11 71:4 76:12
81:18 83:6,12 91:18
92:11,21 96:12
137:8,17 139:13
153:15 157:5
160:10 161:9
163:23 173:18
174:10 176:7
188:17,19,25
203:19 213:20
gotten
45:6
government
4:8 6:23 7:7,15 42:1
211:15
governor
26:21
governs
3:20
great
57:4 69:12 160:11
211:3 214:17
green
143:16
Greenberg
15:3,14
gross
137:17
grotesque
77:2
ground
79:11,14 210:7
grounds
16:20
guess
6:20 13:23 28:9
33:14 58:11 90:13
91:25 96:18 110:10
153:9 161:22
172:17
guest
139:15
guests
110:10 149:9
Gulfstream
113:13 114:5
guns
167:17
guy
10:24 15:14 34:14
128:19,20 183:3
guys
6:11 11:3 24:13
33:19 42:8 146:6
161:24
gymnast
196:25 197:4,6
H
habit
98:10,13
hadn't
83:22 169:8
hair
123:4,9
half
6:14,21 141:4,5,6
185:7
hand
151:5
handful
198:17
handle
60:21
hands
16:24 168:20
handwriting
145:23
handwritten
168:10
hang
56:12 100:20
happen
32:8 57:12 142:17,22
148:18 206:7
207:17
happened
12:4 15:10 16:12,14
16:18 25:11 26:17
37:8 38:13 40:20
45:8 52:16 53:15
58:24 62:11,16,19
62:25 63:7 86:14
89:17 91:5 94:24
95:3,6 131:25 136:5
136:8 141:20 144:6
144:11 148:25
156:5 169:17
193:24 195:8,8
196:12 207:7
210:11
happening
7:24 37:13 42:11
60:18 159:15,17
187:17
happens
18:6 32:14 36:21
45:14 46:5 91:23
213:11,11
happy
11:5 47:19 70:14
118:21 138:23
169:22 178:9 188:4
hard
35:9,10 38:18 189:4
196:21
harm
214:1
Harvard
100:20
Harvey
161:16 162:3,7,13,22
163:3,9
has
6:3 7:9 17:2 47...

Page 18
Page 18
haven't
133:5 144:13 172:13
190:14,21 212:9
having
9:21 22:7,10 30:24
32:18 79:3 81:13,13
83:24 94:15 98:16
102:16 116:9
117:25 118:4
125:11 143:13
167:5,16 198:19
202:22 204:14
head
23:14 28:11 57:17
80:11 156:8 190:23
headmaster
191:24
health
39:10
hear
60:13 81:11 108:7
122:3 138:16
142:12 156:24
193:16 212:19
heard
2:19 8:12 16:2 56:10
61:9,22 62:1 74:7
89:13,14 164:9
170:7 171:14 177:1
187:20 192:5
193:20 203:7
212:14
hearing
210:15
heart
21:24 22:1,2,3,9
191:4,7,9,10
Heather
196:25 199:12,12,16
199:16,19,20
200:10
heavily
71:7
held
167:24
helicopter
201:13,14
hello
136:23
help
9:21 12:11,16,25
14:4 27:4 37:14,16
42:19 73:1,2,2
96:16 177:18
208:14 209:24
helped
30:14 72:23 73:4
123:6 127:3
helpful
18:1 54:6,8 59:14
84:8 121:17 124:13
139:5 209:19 211:4
helping
12:25
Henry
100:19 102:17
200:19
her
24:8,10,10 25:1
31:15 39:3,10,12,13
39:13,14 65:25
71:15 72:9,10,13
73:4,5,5 94:16,19
94:21,21,24 95:4,10
95:11 96:9,11,13,16
96:17,21,24 97:5,6
97:7,9,11 117:17,25
120:14 121:25
122:4,8,8,9,25
123:1,3,21,22 125:5
125:6 126:3,4,4,7
129:24 131:15
140:9,12 141:8
142:19 144:14
145:22,24 146:22
148:21,23,24
163:25 170:21
176:7 188:2 199:13
199:15,16 209:4
here
2:4,21 4:23,23 6:7
58:13 84:23 87:24
98:23 139:5 144:3
145:10 146:7
165:16 209:23
212:5 213:9
hereby
215:2
here's
58:9 135:6
herself
96:22 122:7
hesitant
148:14
hey
5:16 76:12 88:8
188:4
he'd
9:10 44:9 131:15
170:7
he's
11:1,1 17:14,16 30:8
30:9 40:22 43:10
49:1 51:19 57:9,11
84:22 85:13 99:5
116:18,19 119:1
137:18 144:8,9
210:9
hi
137:8 148:17
hidden
170:18
hide
188:16
hideous
17:5
high
18:9 25:22 75:5
129:23 130:20,22
190:16
Highbridge
71:8,9
highlighted
87:14
highlights
12:7,8
Hill
31:15
himself
24:1 56:6,25 106:16
134:12 168:21
177:20 178:13
195:4
hire
78:3
hired
54:23 55:4
Hispanic
123:19
historical
151:3
hit
12:19 28:10 205:21
206:16
hits
95:17
Hoffenberg
63:16
Hoffman
182:24 183:15,18
hold
140:9
holding
95:22 133:25 145:12
200:19
hole
17:23 158:10
home
27:23,23 39:21 76:20
92:23 141:7 142:8,8
h...

Page 19
Page 19
77:4
hoping
209:19
Horn
1:9 2:5,6,20 4:25 6:3
6:16 40:4,7 109:12
165:21,24 194:7,10
214:20
horrible
16:16
horse
142:6
horses
27:7
hospital
31:14
host
149:6
hosting
149:7
hotel
27:2
hour
39:24 141:3,3,5,6
hours
112:15 115:25
163:12
house
9:11 12:25 13:1 18:5
18:5 19:6,16,20,21
20:2,9,10,13 21:3,4
21:5,9,12 22:21
31:12 37:5 39:14
42:15 43:11 44:8
45:4 75:6 76:16,25
79:11 81:4 83:15
89:23 92:24 94:25
97:4 107:18 116:22
123:4,7 125:13,18
133:13,13 137:3,18
139:7,14,16 140:19
141:2,15,25 142:7
143:7 148:16
149:11 151:2,12
156:17,18 161:4
174:6 182:14 185:3
185:5 186:11
houseman
45:13
houses
21:3,17 35:14 76:14
76:15 77:5 162:23
182:10
how
3:9 10:5 11:12 12:1
12:13 13:25 14:15
18:15,21 26:17,25
28:17 30:13,17
34:17 38:14 42:9,9
44:23 47:15,19,22
48:12 51:22 54:13
54:18,18 58:9,21
59:8 61:13 63:7,25
64:11 65:1,22,24
66:24,25 75:24 81:5
82:12 92:1 96:4
97:6 105:9,10 111:2
112:12 114:20,22
123:21 124:9
129:22 132:10,25
143:15 144:13
145:24 149:14
150:17,22 152:7,17
155:18 159:6,21
161:15,21,22
169:14 179:12
183:6 184:1,17
186:3,3 192:23,25
193:6 195:14 198:9
198:20 199:3
200:24 201:16
210:18 212:21
213:19,25
however
4:6 5:12 85:3,10
107:11 125:9
133:19 142:5
huge
72:10 143:2
Huh
116:25
human
148:21
hundred
43:18 60:23 143:5
164:8 210:1
hung
133:20 135:19
199:12
hurt
159:15,17
husband
70:24 73:5 129:25
199:15,16
hypothetical
58:1,3
I
icky
74:8
idea
42:6 73:4 88:25
97:18 103:3 135:2
141:14 151:22
157:17 177:17
207:9
ideas
13:23 110:14
identify
72:9 123:22
Ignore
117:4
illegal
203:5
illustrated
61:17
illustrative
124:21
image
143:11 145:9
imagine
59:14,15 99:6 116:13
135:9,25 152:5
161:13 163:2
imagined
177:2
imagining
115:21
immediately
203:6
immunity
4:12
important
3:21 4:4,4,6 11:3,4
59:13 90:12 99:14
126:1 141:12 207:8
211:16 212:2,20
Impossible
139:2
impress
128:18
improper
202:13
improve
111:2,3
improvements
110:21
improvising
59:17
inappropriate
76:5,17,19,23 88:12
89:8,17 107:21,22
108:9 156:21 157:1
inaudible
67:8 132:2
inception
7:8 164:21
include
185:...

Page 20
Page 20
indicted
7:12 212:6
indictment
52:4
indirectly
33:8,15
indiscernible
15:15 46:12 69:6
82:11 100:20
individual
38:1 110:25 111:21
189:21
individuals
64:24 75:13 87:24
100:9 102:4,14
176:20 178:15
181:13 202:24
inefficiencies
204:15
informant
167:10,10
information
37:11 138:12 153:3
185:14 202:8 207:6
207:12 208:15
209:25 213:2
infrequent
208:9
initially
23:25
injuries
91:9
insane
137:11
inside
73:6 78:12,19 80:22
81:4 206:8,11
insistent
92:10
installed
79:7
installing
80:4
instance
38:20 58:18 60:7
107:18
instances
177:21
instructor
111:20
intelli
13:14
intelligence
13:9,12,15,16 126:11
127:22,23 189:17
189:22 190:7
intelligent
57:3
intensity
12:21
interact
87:3
interacted
121:12
interacting
116:24
intercourse
22:5,7,10
interest
52:20 53:23 85:10
interested
52:11 164:21 195:19
208:24 215:12
interesting
14:20 16:11
internal
81:2,2 206:17
international
190:18
interpreted
127:15
interrupted
30:13
interview
1:1 2:10 40:8 109:13
193:22 214:21,24
interviewed
121:3
into
9:16 14:21 20:2 28:9
29:21 43:4 85:17,18
95:8 99:16 106:1
113:15 139:15
156:8 168:20
171:23 172:3,4,5
184:23 188:9
189:12 213:20
introduce
132:21,22 135:9
introduced
3:14 58:21 90:25
91:17 135:8 151:11
invest
61:4
investigated
45:16
investigation
41:5 170:15 186:18
186:18,24 205:4
Investigations
40:24
investment
60:21 61:5
invite
8:3
invited
11:21 133:17 149:9
150:19 178:7
involve
58:5
involved
28:24 29:8 68:17
71:7 73:24 163:15
173:19 215:8
involvement
195:12
IRA
16:13
Iranian
19:9 22:21,22
Iranians
19:10
Iraqis
19:10
irritating
193:13
island
35:20 36:4,8 49:16
77:11 80:6 110:8,9
110:13,18,21 111:3
111:9 113:3 140:16
156:16 157:5 161:1
162:21 182:21
198:23 199:2,25
200:3 201:7
isn't
3:22 153:15 213:10
Israel
195:18,19,20,21
Israeli
189:17,22
issue
12:4 56:16 88:16
89:10 99:13,16
148:15,15
issues
9:22 90:12 122:22
Italy
200:4,6
its
39:18 94:13,22
157:21 164:20
itself
118:23 142:21
169:25 173:4 185:3
it'd
35:8 185:10
it'll
72:11
Ivana
10:1
I'd
8:20,23 10:21 11:5
14:20,24 16:2 33:16
110:23 123:...

Page 21
Page 21
3:15 6:2 7:18 10:23
10:24 16:11 29:1
57:4 76:12 83:19
84:14 91:12 96:14
105:4 109:2 118:14
123:11,12,13 133:5
139:1,2 152:10,10
157:25 166:12
171:16 175:23
189:2 192:5 196:18
203:19 214:6
J
J
56:9
jail
47:2 48:5,5 49:2 50:7
166:20 168:22
189:10 207:19
James
109:22
Jane
126:2
January
145:19,25
Jason
34:14
Jean-Luc
159:18 160:12,20
161:13
Jeffrey
35:9 58:21,21 134:13
135:1,6 136:2,12
192:24 193:6
Jerry
100:25
Jes
67:10,11
jewel
142:6,8
JFK
153:18,20
Jimmy
15:3,13 16:8 17:7
56:19 101:3
job
35:15 136:22
jobs
9:3
Joe
100:25 101:1
John
80:1 112:7 123:7,9
154:15 185:3,10
Johnson
65:11,12,12,14 66:12
67:6
John's
123:20
journal
168:10
journalist
130:1,2 146:5,8
journey
104:3
JP
71:9
Jr
153:18,20 154:16
Judge
4:1
judges
4:2
Julian
126:1
July
1:2 2:9 5:17 40:9
109:14 166:1 168:8
168:9,16 194:8,12
214:21,22
jumping
14:7 157:11 177:4
191:17
June
95:15
Justice
1:1 143:20
K
keen
7:6,16
keep
12:25 35:10 123:6
169:4 186:10
206:23 207:11
keeping
28:8
Kennedy
154:16
Kenny
101:1
kept
7:19 27:22 79:7
185:4
Kerry
153:24,25
Kerry's
153:24,25
ketchup
11:11
key
20:9
keys
137:2
kick
171:2
kicker
142:25
kickers
142:25
kidnap
16:13
kill
205:17,19,20
killed
205:10 206:10,22
kind
13:17 18:9,16 25:19
32:1 42:20 45:15
54:8 58:5 62:16
63:11 64:18 78:17
90:8 99:14 102:12
105:1 115:25 124:9
127:15 129:4 135:4
138:8 144:4 148:3
161:23 166:8
174:17 183:12
186:3 204:3,25
205:2,15,24 206:22
211:25 212:3,8,17
kinds
119:2 202:8
Kings
26:21
Klein
72:10
knew
8:14 10:4,5 11:18
15:2,22,24 16:3,8
31:5,10,16 32:7
42:14 45:8 58:25
81:15 120:5 129:22
137:13 155:1,13,18
160:15 164:14
181:25 192:14
204:5,5 206:23
knowing
120:11,11,13 171:16
knowledge
13:10 14:2 52:10
60:17 63:12 108:17
157:10 171:3 204:4
206:20
known
16:4 43:3 126:15
128:9 130:2 151:7
knows
98:20
Kong
33:24
L
la
61:16
lack
125:22 213:14
lady
69:3 123:6 163:25
laid
44:8
lameness
91:11
land
27:4 158:21 159:3
MAGNA9 
LEGAL SERVICES 

Page 22
Page 22
largest
72:9
last
107:25 194:5 207:25
208:6
lasted
96:11
late
25:21 28:8 32:7
87:18 91:2 111:12
111:24 112:22,24
115:9 116:2 117:8
182:12 190:25
210:12
later
15:12 84:11 86:3
91:7 102:7 120:4
130:16 149:15
160:15 195:14,22
latter
185:23
laughs
54:15
launching
9:5,7
laundering
57:8
law
16:21 41:7,22 52:1
80:3 127:23 166:21
166:23 186:20
Lawson
129:25
lawyer
3:17 5:6,13 6:11
146:9 155:25
166:23 170:2,13,13
lawyers
8:4 52:9,13,20 53:22
74:6 172:23 209:9
209:10
lead
169:20,21
leading
212:25
Leah
1:14 2:25,25 28:14
54:25 97:8 134:16
139:24 141:5,23
142:3 143:23
165:13 167:8
197:25
learn
42:10 51:22 54:17
160:15
learned
56:2,13 63:22 118:24
least
56:19 60:17 166:12
leave
189:7
leaves
186:2
leaving
124:25
led
208:18
left
44:22 96:21 135:24
139:16,17 141:9
163:19
legal
51:12 188:11
legitimate
92:19
lend
118:23
Lennox
31:15
Leon
63:25 64:1,2,7,9,11
70:19
Les
59:12,16 60:6,11
62:12 63:8
less
176:18
let
37:15 38:20 69:7
74:2 117:3 120:8
124:1 143:23
159:16 211:16
letter
29:5 178:25 179:22
179:25 194:22
letters
178:16 179:5 181:8
let's
22:13 40:19 54:3
57:2,6 61:3,16
62:11 76:2,17 85:17
90:5 95:13,14
100:12 116:1
119:20 121:2,3
125:12 132:21
138:2 142:10
143:11,12 163:10
165:20 176:12
187:4
level
18:9 25:22 73:24
Levine
151:8,13,15
liar
209:5
license
96:18
lie
4:20,24 118:16
142:21
life
16:12,24 20:6 23:1
24:12 30:3 38:13
42:3 54:5 59:4 66:2
66:25 68:17 100:9
102:14 109:19
118:13,19
life-restricting
16:21
light
6:16
liked
9:25 10:1 22:12 39:6
92:11,22,22,25 95:4
104:22,23 105:4
128:14,15 137:18
152:18
Limited
60:9
line
20:7 85:17,19
line's
31:19
linked
176:20
Lipper
101:1
list
16:13 164:13,15,15
164:17,18,24,24
166:5,11 167:3,11
167:21,22 168:16
168:20 169:11
170:21 171:12,14
171:17,19 172:6,10
172:11,22 173:4,7,8
173:12 174:9,11,12
174:18,25 175:24
175:24 176:19,19
176:25 183:23
184:1,1,24,25
185:20,20 186:3
205:16
listen
18:10 47:2 197:21
lit
137:12
literally
147:4,6 162:25
little
5:10 8:5 14:7 17:20
28:9 99:12 109:8,21
142:5,7,9,11 157:11
157:18 163:13
164:2 ...

Page 23
Page 23
living
51:2 95:10
local
95:12 96:3 112:1,7
locally
112:5
locations
78:19 157:6
lock
205:22
logistically
144:5
logs
25:6 146:2 169:12
174:5
London
129:21 131:6,8
137:20 139:8,9,14
140:13,25 141:3,7
146:2 148:5
London's
131:9
long
10:21 19:2,3 30:17
43:19 54:4,5 64:4
108:3 123:12
129:22 133:23
165:17,18,19 175:3
178:17
longer
9:15 38:3 42:20
64:25
long-term
10:22 43:5
look
9:21 12:13 26:10,13
31:15 39:2,6,12
44:6 70:15 76:12
84:11 95:21 99:3
116:17 124:7 143:2
145:10 146:12
158:6 173:22
looked
57:1 133:5 158:5
looking
9:10 11:2 12:9,11,12
19:8 39:12 69:15
71:13 79:19 100:21
111:5,9 116:14
134:5 160:8 175:15
175:18
looks
142:17
lost
12:19 20:4 26:18
44:1
lot
5:22 12:3 16:19
20:25 22:5,7,15
25:2 29:12 43:14
73:21 74:23 84:14
84:21 88:22 91:9,10
96:5 113:17 137:18
140:7 164:11
177:19 180:15
185:22 190:12
194:20 205:3 207:6
207:6,23 208:7
211:21 213:1,1
lots
25:4 99:2
Lou
101:3
love
11:1 27:5 33:1
157:24 158:19
177:17
loved
26:16 29:23 91:15
104:23 106:2
110:13,18,19
195:20
ludicrous
116:16 186:15
207:17
lunch
163:11 213:7
lying
197:25
Lynn
72:23,24 133:7,22
156:4
M
M
215:2,14
made
49:16 70:10 110:21
115:15 120:14
127:12 135:1 170:6
174:25 187:13
191:16
Madison
11:7
Madrigal
1:15 3:2,3
magazine
9:8 160:6,7
maid
123:6
maids
66:18
main
181:22
maintain
27:5 38:18 186:10
maintained
164:12 184:24 186:4
186:4
maintaining
43:16
make
27:11 28:7 35:1 36:2
38:18 59:5,21 63:2
66:17 67:2 69:22
119:4 136:17
142:10 143:2 204:2
209:21
makes
20:8 94:8 103:20
119:9 171:20
185:19
making
3:20 39:13,14
male
87:9
males
112:19
man
85:3,3,5,5,6 94:18,22
112:8 141:17
manage
36:1 47:4 49:2,9 50:4
managed
35:25 59:16 66:25
169:24
management
35:17
manager
27:1 30:14 36:4
37:24 38:4 42:21
90:22 184:22
managing
37:23 65:25
Manhattan
152:11
manipulative
118:20
Mann
196:25
manners
94:22
manufactured
145:1 172:11
many
26:10 29:1 30:17
65:1 76:14 149:8
158:4 160:24
166:21 204:5
man's
142:8,8
March
139:8 140:12 145:24
145:25
mark
1:10 2:20 43:20,22
173:18 192:21
193:7 198:2 199:1
marked
17...

Page 24
Page 24
Markus
1:13 2:23,24 5:23 6:5
6:21 12:7 21:25
22:2 28:17 33:18
34:11 39:15,23 40:3
67:20 69:17 71:17
71:23 72:2 74:9,12
74:14,17 83:1 84:10
85:16,21 90:1 93:5
97:14 98:14,18
123:23 124:1 128:4
128:9 135:16
138:14 141:19,22
143:7 144:10,17
147:18 148:7
151:14 164:23
165:15 188:1,8
193:25 194:2
203:17 211:9,16
212:16
Marrakesh
140:19
marriage
32:7
married
24:6,7,9 32:4 71:4
95:9 117:20
marry
153:25
Marshal
1:10 2:21
Martha's
156:4
Mar-a-Lago
105:20,25 108:24
109:3
Mar-a-Lago's
108:14
mass
112:6
massage
87:17 88:7,9,19 91:9
91:12,14,15 92:19
92:21 96:17 97:24
98:13 102:18,23
103:1,17 104:5,8
106:18 107:20
108:25 112:5,16
113:10,23 114:15
114:19,23 120:12
125:13 157:5 161:8
161:9 167:4
massaged
117:13 157:8
massages
75:6,14 76:22 84:6
89:8 102:16 108:15
108:15 112:19
114:13 115:15
116:23 117:7 118:1
120:17 183:20
masseur
91:17
masseuse
87:9 88:8,11,21 91:1
91:3,16 92:12,13
94:25 95:8 96:22
97:23 98:24 99:2
102:25 108:24
109:3 111:17,18,19
112:2 113:24
120:11 186:1
masseuses
75:18 87:19 89:9,21
90:13,17,20 92:3,10
93:12,12 97:13,19
98:17,20 99:2 108:9
108:14 110:2
116:11,23,24
117:10 120:9 149:8
171:13 176:21
183:23 184:25
185:20,22 202:13
masturbate
98:2
masturbated
93:14
match
44:12
materials
52:7 211:7
math
55:2,5 73:20
matter
141:1
Maxwell's
8:25
may
9:23 15:5 17:8 26:21
27:21 29:6 33:2
38:23 39:9 44:11
63:20 75:15 79:15
79:16 87:5,8 95:15
104:19 108:16
115:10 127:2
128:24 129:12
130:18 148:24,24
166:24 182:2,3
194:14 196:18
213:16,25
maybe
14:7 15:9 19:3 28:9
32:9,9 34:14,15
37:3,4,5 39:24 42:7
44:14 48:25 54:1
58:13,14 64:25 69:4
76:9 79:14,15 89:10
89:10 96:5 106:8,16
108:4 111:22 115:1
115:2,4,21 117:1
123:17,19 126:18
131:19 141:11
142:1,2 154:13
161:9 163:6 180:12
180:13,17 182:14
182:14 190:16
196:15,17 201:19
208:2,3 210:7
mayor
151:7,8
MCC
203:15,23 207:7
McMillan
9:11 12:17
McMillen
100:15,17
mean
13:17 16:2 19:3
22:11 23:11 28:18
29:20,22 30:25 31:7
32:2,19,19,21 34:2
37:8,15 40:16 43:3
49:10 50:17,18,23
51:18 66:1 71:1
72:5 74:5 76:19
83:20...

Page 25
Page 25
5:23 7:16,20 8:17
10:4,24 11:5,14
12:2,5 13:22 33:6
34:17 54:13 59:3
64:1 69:7 72:3
129:8 133:1 136:21
153:18,20 160:20
161:4,24 162:6
181:14,25
meeting
3:23,24 11:13 69:11
123:3 155:3 196:8
meetings
60:12
Melissa
1:15 3:2,3
members
29:15 129:8 130:19
memorable
11:8 199:10 200:4,16
memories
156:15
memory
27:19,21 29:3,6
44:10 53:11 66:17
102:20 107:9
111:24 124:24
125:11,22 127:17
148:14 152:20
156:13 161:12
163:3 187:9 196:8
196:13,14,19,22
memory's
69:23
men
73:8 82:19,21 87:12
87:15 89:7 112:23
112:25 167:5
172:22 174:10
mention
121:10
mentioned
63:22 99:18 100:3,4
100:6 102:9,10
104:9,11 121:8
157:12 169:7
191:25 195:10
Meryl
162:14
messages
186:10
metamorphosis
171:19 172:7
Mexico
26:3,16,16 30:15
77:17 90:14 116:19
125:23 140:20
162:21 200:1
Miami
151:8
mid
32:7 59:5 91:2 108:4
108:4 184:22
190:25
Middleton
198:3 199:1
might
17:8,19 32:10 64:8
64:11 102:7 114:2,4
114:15 126:24
133:9 144:2 166:7
176:6,6 185:21
197:13 202:5
miles
159:3
million
47:21,23 62:13
137:16 169:4,10
171:2 180:15,15
millions
35:19
mind
26:8 93:22 94:8
102:15 111:11
120:10 134:5
149:19 172:9
180:14 184:12
mind-blowingly
141:16
mine
10:19 64:10 94:17
151:7 172:7 201:18
Minis
196:1
Minister
196:2
Minsky
103:12,14
minute
4:10 17:23 20:15
56:12 102:2 137:8
minutes
3:13,19 46:18 70:2
129:4 163:11
194:17 211:2,8
Miramax
162:12
mirrors
143:3
misconduct
113:4
misdated
147:3
mishigas
84:9
misinformation
213:1,3
mislead
210:4
mismanagement
204:15 205:24
misnomers
23:9
miss
130:13,14 143:17,18
missed
84:9
missing
86:12,13 153:14
158:13
misspeak
129:14 209:16
misspoke
129:12
Mitchell
199:4,22 200:10
mixture
138:25
modeling
82:24
modification
111:14
modified
123:11
mom
177:16
moment
11:3 18:17 20:6,8
86:20 90:7 118:12
118:25
Monckton
129:25
money
19:14 28:3,4 29:13
29:13,17,17,24 30:9
36:12 54:18 56:21
56:23,24 57:2,8,10
57:11,21 58:20 59:5
60:1 66:1 75:21
79:3,4 80:5 127:2,7
139:11 163:4,7
174:10 190:7
Montana
26:12
Montecristo
201:18
month
19:15
months
19:3 95:11,13 96:11
168:18
more
...

Page 26
Page 26
188:19 202:4,21
209:19 211:23
Morgan
67:13 71:9 151:19
152:9
morning
2:5 3:8,10 5:23 191:8
214:19
morphed
115:3 172:3,5
morphs
171:23
Mossad
189:16,22 190:8
most
3:21 4:4,18 11:8
68:16 117:16 118:1
158:3,5 199:10
200:3,15,17
mostly
106:5 110:20 149:18
mother
38:24 39:1,7 44:2
126:4
move
12:11
moved
8:19,20,22 20:2 43:4
48:17 50:12
moves
57:10 136:2
moving
111:12 132:12
Ms
2:9,14 3:8 5:17,17
6:14,20 40:8 65:14
66:12 67:6 109:14
109:16 122:25
136:8 137:23 148:5
165:25 194:11
much
9:15,25 10:1 33:1
47:15,22 55:11 61:7
104:23 111:16
132:19 137:20
146:12 153:3
163:20 180:17
210:7,14
multiple
9:3 13:7 91:10
116:22,23 117:7
146:20 183:23
multi-billionaire
171:6
mum
31:14 38:21 39:2,6
140:11 163:23
177:12
mum's
140:4 141:1,12
147:15
murder
16:13 206:17
murdered
207:11
museum
72:11
must
24:20 98:19 114:11
187:5 196:12
myself
3:14 7:19 18:16
19:16 26:24 37:17
38:12 80:15 89:13
123:5 208:13,14,17
209:22,25
N
N
2:1
naked
93:12 103:1 180:1,1
name
2:4,5,11,25 3:2 33:1
54:23 58:12,19 67:7
69:3 71:15 129:24
162:14 164:9
184:11 192:14
196:25
named
63:15 67:9 182:23
191:21 198:2
namely
110:1
names
65:4,7,9 69:22 70:10
70:18 71:19 102:7
151:16 174:2,2,5
175:23,25 178:15
178:23 185:4 186:1
190:13 202:4,8,19
Nantucket
133:14,16
narrative
86:14 166:9
Nat
158:10 159:16
Nathan
4:1
national
158:2 159:5
nationals
190:14
nature
68:9 107:10 141:15
155:14 196:3
necessarily
5:3 60:15 176:11
185:22
need
9:15 11:3 29:24
76:13 86:9 119:21
129:11 185:21
188:9
needed
37:11,13 117:13
136:13,19 185:9,13
208:14,14,15
needs
214:5
nefarious
127:18,18,19
negative
213:12
neither
215:7
nervous
158:1
new
2:7 9:4,5,5,12,20,22
10:15 12:15 15:5
19:7 22:21 26:1,3
26:16,16 30:15 31:6
31:7,9 39:14 51:7
51:20 52:14,25 53:2
53:19 55:10 62:7
73:6 77:6,17 81:19
90:14 92:11,13,16
92:16 110:22,22,23
116:19,20 117:9
125:23,24 136:13
137:11 140:17,20
162:21 170:22,24
172:6,25 175:19
179:6 199:12,25
200:1
news
9:12,22 131:13 146:7
newspaper
9:5
newspapers
119:13
next
36:21 91:23 124:2
213:11,14,15
nice
136:2...

Page 27
Page 27
142:10
none
110:15 120:17 173:1
179:14
nonexistent
50:10
nonsense
144:24
non-existent
50:17
non-prosecution
169:15 170:10
187:24 188:20
nor
76:16 84:24 215:7,11
normal
61:4 80:15 96:7
nose
203:20
note
174:8 179:1
notes
69:10 70:8 100:22
168:10 194:16
nothing
11:19 29:8,20,25
46:11,11 64:8 88:18
135:11,20 164:10
164:25 165:1 178:3
179:17 187:6 203:8
noticed
79:4
notion
73:8 86:14
notwithstanding
103:11
now
3:14 11:6 14:1 18:3
24:17 25:3,5,6,21
26:18 28:11 29:2
38:12 39:24 42:5
44:2 52:13 53:5,20
54:7 55:15 61:2
74:22,25 83:9 84:18
85:8 86:24 90:6
94:17 95:2,15 96:8
96:14 97:11 98:6
99:5 102:7 105:4
109:6 111:11,17,20
113:2 115:21
116:14 119:9
123:19 124:25
126:7 127:1 132:12
132:25 133:15,23
138:23 140:23
145:16,22,24 149:5
164:1 165:22 166:1
169:13,24 171:4,16
172:23 175:16,25
176:9 184:4,7,12,12
184:19 190:15
194:11 204:14
nowhere
169:8
NPA
170:19,23 188:6
nuanced
5:10 89:10
number
121:4
numbers
184:15 185:4
nut
142:10
O
observation
99:4
observe
60:13 81:6 84:4
90:11 104:14
106:17,20 111:25
113:3 156:20
160:21 161:7,9
183:17 202:12
observed
59:24 99:8,9 105:12
110:3 113:22
176:18 193:8
198:14 203:1
obsessed
114:12
obtains
167:11
obvious
27:22 77:4 178:6
196:16
obviously
16:19 22:14 24:25
29:11,24 56:18
59:11,23 84:14
85:11 88:20 103:25
121:22 123:11
125:1 155:4 158:21
165:4 184:15
197:24 203:15
214:2
occasion
20:16 51:10
occurred
117:23,24 118:17
135:8
ocean
157:24 158:1,9,19,22
158:24,24 159:3,5
October
166:25 168:18
off
46:14 97:24 98:1
100:1 113:9,18
126:22,23 128:19
136:4 165:23 174:7
174:10 190:22
194:9
offensive
214:2
offered
7:19
office
11:14 23:13,13 74:5
79:16 113:19
186:11
officer
4:22 13:15,17
officers
4:23
offices
11:7,24,24 176:6
Official
215:14
often
11:10 88:7 110:17,18
114:23 131:7
oh
7:5 50:25 55:6 57:6
64:1 69:2,16 70:17
76:5 80:8 88:17
99:20,24 101:13
106:13 122:14
123:7 125:19 132:1
139:21,25 140:1
141:24 143:25
144:16 146:4 153:4
154:21 156:1
163:23 171:18
175:13 179:16
197:5 203:12,17
Ohio
21:5,7,10,17 67:8
71:14 72:6
OIG
205:3...

Page 28
Page 28
114:25 115:1,16
121:7,13,20,20,22
121:23 128:14
133:15,15 135:18
138:7 140:8 143:9
145:8 146:1,20,20
146:21 148:7 151:3
152:19 156:15
157:4 158:4,16,18
160:6,10 163:19
172:25 174:4,5
175:18 179:21
181:19 185:15,25
186:13 194:5,15,25
197:13,23 201:8
202:24 203:7 207:9
ones
92:20 158:5
one-off
208:8
ongoing
209:7
only
6:23 21:3 27:4 34:9
37:7 63:7,9,17,22
71:12 78:6,8 79:14
103:25 104:6
105:16 108:5
112:25 119:12
126:3,3,7 127:4,17
146:1,1 147:23
152:19,19 156:18
170:2 175:6 180:17
185:6 195:17
198:16,19 208:11
open
113:14
opening
46:21
operation
167:11
operator
35:11
opine
188:22
opinion
44:9 111:1 204:25
opportunity
17:11 207:19 212:8
opposite
92:14
OPR
169:25
orbit
95:8
organize
136:14
organized
131:16 177:19
201:20
organizing
39:13
origin
166:8,16
original
171:20 173:2 176:2
originally
12:15 110:9 174:3
Oscar
2:23
other
5:2,21 16:14 22:12
24:23 25:4 29:14
31:4 38:14 40:14
49:10 57:19 58:6
64:9 71:19 72:22
81:4 100:4,8,9
111:16 114:15
119:13 120:5
125:25 126:5
127:21,23 128:16
139:22 147:17,19
147:25 148:8,21
151:4 155:2 157:4
160:16 162:11
169:12 179:21
181:13 191:2,5,12
195:17 201:9
213:15
others
17:1 75:14 81:13
84:5 92:3 109:21
113:9 132:16 153:6
187:21
otherwise
116:10 215:11
our
3:21 5:11 12:19 15:1
20:3 30:19 115:5
137:12
out
6:21 7:10 25:19
37:10 41:23 44:8
46:5 48:5,5 50:7
51:14 63:5,10 71:24
88:12 93:24 96:13
102:15,20 116:9,12
120:5 123:21
133:20 135:19,24
151:12 155:3
166:20,21 169:4
171:2 172:2 173:3
184:4 186:18
197:22 199:13
208:17 213:2,19
outcome
169:22 215:12
outfit
147:12,14
outside
39:17,18 80:14,17
141:3,7 159:5 206:6
206:8
over
5:24 9:20 12:5 13:23
14:6 20:21 31:5
32:1 34:1 40:17
44:8 48:6,17 64:19
84:4 85:6 89:6
91:23 97:15,20
109:18 112:18
116:19 118:14
120:9 129:5 149:4
160:22 173:14
181:15 184:21
overheard
59:25
overnight
71:25
oversaw
36:1
overturn
170:10,19,20
overturning
170:23
owed
62:12
own
8:24 16:24 28:4,4
37:25 39:6 121:25
122:4,9 123:21,22
160:18 162:17
163:21 168:5
184:16
owners
110:9,10,11
P
Pagano
100:25
page
18...

Page 29
Page 29
178:1
papers
93:24 119:24 146:23
174:8
paperwork
172:19
Pardon
189:25
Paris
24:14,21 49:19 77:20
77:21 158:14
160:12
part
3:21 4:4 32:8 36:3,3
41:4,8 44:19 46:14
46:21 49:23 59:4,22
62:10 63:13 75:6,7
81:22 90:21,22 92:2
92:2 109:19 113:8
115:4,16 117:4
149:7 159:2,5
168:23 169:13
170:22 183:9 184:5
185:25 186:3
187:14 207:1
partially
92:6
particular
12:4 54:7
parties
146:13 149:4 202:15
215:8,11
partner
61:13
partners
68:12,13
parts
175:7
party
147:15 148:4 149:6,7
149:9
passed
12:6,14 163:14
passing
12:19 28:23
past
111:15,19 115:25
Pastrana
200:22,25 201:8,10
path
8:2
Paula
38:24
pay
47:6,9 195:20 205:19
205:20
paying
30:9 47:11,12
payment
47:18
pays
30:10
peasant
29:18
peg
131:4
pen
6:6
penny
29:25
people
13:22 14:4 15:22
38:15 43:15,16
49:10 62:1 66:18
68:24 72:22,22 74:6
75:18 82:18 85:11
85:22 87:6 92:20
93:1 96:10 99:17
100:4 102:6 107:14
110:23 111:16,23
112:11 114:15
124:18 125:15
127:3 128:16
129:23,23,23
142:20 149:11,17
151:4 162:12
164:13,13 169:10
172:20 173:19
174:3 177:19,21,24
178:13 185:4,21,25
195:2,4 197:22
205:16 206:23
207:12 210:17,18
210:20,21 212:12
people's
61:4 175:8 176:5
percent
43:18 60:23 164:8
180:18 210:1
percentage
57:23 61:19
percentages
61:10
Perelman
160:11
perfect
175:13
perform
93:13
perhaps
137:6
period
18:8,23 24:5 28:21
36:21 38:2 46:18
51:3,4 64:25 65:18
79:19 85:6 93:16,16
94:2 95:3,5,14
96:12,20 100:10
105:22 109:17
110:16 114:21,22
116:2 117:16 118:2
119:1 129:21 159:8
166:12 197:17
periods
86:9 193:11 197:16
person
17:11 90:25 97:4
103:15 108:1
111:17 117:16
118:1 120:14 123:5
126:5
personal
60:20 67:25 108:17
156:13 193:2
personally
11:14 161:10
perspective
17:9
Pestana
1:7 2:17,17 145:6,11
152:8 195:10,12
phase
110:20
Philip
151:8,8,9,13,15
phone
15:6 41:18 45:2,3,7
50:19 51:9
phones
137:4
photo
134:5 145:7 147:1,2
147:4,6
photograph
76:7 127:12 131:2
133:2 139:18 145:4
147:23
photographed
82:18
photographic
76:7
photographs
81:6 82:11,14,17,20
83:9,10,25 106:22
106:22,25 107:2
131:14
photos
82:2 83:1...

Page 30
Page 30
180:1
pictures
78:12 81:7 82:5,22
82:23 83:1,7,7,16
83:19
piece
96:15 132:20 138:5
167:2 178:1 212:9
pieced
96:14
pieces
140:21 169:12
171:22 174:24
Piers
151:18 152:9
pills
191:4,14
pilot
201:14,14
pimp
94:19
Pinto
140:15
pissed
136:4
place
54:14 75:24 139:19
142:9 143:16
144:24 146:3 161:6
166:20 168:14
176:3 209:18 210:2
places
201:7
plan
113:14 141:23 213:8
plane
24:16,19 29:23 33:16
33:18 34:1,4,6,12
38:20 60:12 77:22
77:23,24 78:4 104:1
104:2,4,6 113:5,6,9
113:25 158:13,13
158:15 182:9,18,20
201:6
planes
113:12 125:23
planet
123:16
planned
140:24
plant
77:1 80:22,23
plea
193:18
please
6:6 58:2 144:20
197:6
plenty
207:18
plus
118:21 149:1,5,18
186:8 187:10
podcast
170:6
point
13:4 17:14,20 18:11
24:4 27:17 31:22,25
38:2,8 44:1,24,25
49:11,19 52:14
54:14,24 96:8
110:10 117:12
119:3,3,5,8 122:3
123:21 136:12
137:6 139:3 145:2
190:4,25 197:14
205:1 207:4 208:9
210:15
police
45:4 79:6,6
politician
13:22
politicians
190:19
poor
142:7
pop
197:22
Pope
200:19
popped
156:7
portfolios
61:5
portion
57:21 179:5
portions
179:11 180:8
position
5:7 84:1
positioned
30:6
positions
81:8
positive
101:17 147:24
possible
108:20,22 206:13,14
possibly
80:14 184:14
post
133:4 149:18,18
151:11
Poster
162:14
post-2000
129:4
potentially
75:19 76:25 123:21
145:2
powerful
83:25 207:12
Practically
58:7
pre
133:4
precisely
79:22
precludes
22:7
preface
170:3
premise
76:3
prequel
166:18 169:13
present
81:12 110:2 135:1
166:15
president
33:11,11 34:11,22,23
99:18 100:4,6
103:17,24 104:7,11
104:14,17,25 105:4
105:25 106:18,23
107:17,19,21,22
108:1,8 150:2,25
151:4,9,11 178:25
179:17,18,21
194:19,21 198:7
200:22 213:20
214:1
President's
107:11
press
12:22 37:9 51:13,24
63:8,17,24 119:2
124:18 194:18
196:18,20
presumably
117:9
presume
140:13
pretend
125:4
pretty
23:1 52:15 79:23
91:20
prevented
22:10
pre-meeting
131:23
primary
162:14
Prime
196:1,2
Prince
101:9 132:14,17,22
132:22 133:18
134:12 135:5,13
136:7,9 137:10,23
139:11 141:14
145:11 148:5
Princess
129:24 133:3
MAGNA9 
LEGAL...

Page 31
Page 31
prior
156:1
prison
205:17,18 206:7,8
prisoner
205:20
Prisons
204:16,18 206:2
Pritzker
101:2
private
54:23 76:20 105:15
105:18 108:15,25
pro
170:13
probably
59:14 72:2 108:3
124:8 134:8 141:11
152:12 210:24
problem
7:18 56:16 163:19
203:22
problems
138:8 163:21
proceedings
215:9
process
193:19
produce
175:25
produced
167:19 173:13
175:18,20
producer
162:14
professional
40:14 87:19 91:2
154:15
proffer
2:8 3:18 40:8 109:13
165:25 194:11
214:21
program
94:18
progress
85:14
progressed
115:1,3
progression
85:4 90:8 111:13
116:1
project
26:1 157:13
projects
35:13,14,24
prolific
99:5
prominent
102:13
promising
3:24 4:1
properties
35:16,16,17 37:23
47:4 163:9
property
26:11 27:2 62:6,14
prosecuted
7:12 167:16 168:21
168:25
prosecution
4:20 169:16
prosecutor
146:11 169:20
prosecutors
172:24
prostitutes
176:3
protection
4:8 16:19 84:25
protective
17:2
provide
6:10
provided
215:3
providing
59:9
provost
100:20
PS
29:7
pub
201:1
public
91:25 106:22 109:20
153:3 175:3 202:7
206:23
publicity
136:6 138:12
publicized
6:25
publicly
98:3 151:17 166:4
175:7
publishing
9:11
purchase
36:8 110:12
purchased
9:12 26:2,7 105:25
110:8
purported
119:2 136:7
purpose
139:12 170:9,20
purposes
146:19,21 167:22
184:18 201:11
pushed
135:19
pushing
86:19
put
2:4,14 16:19 19:23
21:12 47:5 76:15
136:2 139:2 142:16
143:2 175:1 176:5
184:17 187:4 190:4
213:19
puts
99:25
putting
84:2 86:20 116:21
136:6 146:16
177:20 206:7
p.m
109:11,11 165:23
194:9,12 214:24
Q
quarter
47:21,23
quarters
158:24
question
7:17 8:2 75:11 85:18
85:20,25 88:22
93:17,25 99:15
103:23 113:12
117:15 120:8,22
121:13 124:2,21
151:25 153:10
155:8,10 178:6
188:15 206:5
questions
2:13 3:16 7:25 13:8
110:6 181:12
189:12 194:14
202:6 211:19
quibbling
88:21
quiet
46:13 207:11
quite
17:2 142:15,15 146:6
163:24
quoting
94:17
R
R
2:1
rabbit
17:22
raided
168:19
raise
163:4
raising
163:7
ran
35:15 56:20 74:4,5
159:12 210:7
ranch
MAGNA9 
LEGAL SERVICES 

Page 32
Page 32
26:2,17,19,22 27:3
27:8,10 30:15 77:17
random
123:18
rang
16:7,8
Ranieri
101:3
raped
99:5
rate
205:21
rather
7:14
reach
41:23
reached
6:21 7:10
read
24:17 63:11 108:16
119:12 138:4,7
187:21 189:2,12
196:18 204:4
reading
119:6 197:5
real
12:9 26:10,14 29:18
80:24 126:21
135:11 136:24
184:8,16
realized
32:1,9,12
really
3:24 18:21,23 20:7
20:18 32:11 35:15
46:15 49:23 60:7
64:8,12 66:1,2 69:7
70:3 73:9 75:24
84:8 87:15 104:23
106:12 110:18,19
117:13 122:21
123:17 135:14
137:18,19,19 149:4
157:23 158:23
181:9 208:10,16
210:7,21
reason
7:21 10:16,16,17
14:24 44:13 48:22
58:20 79:2 85:24
94:14 115:3,4
130:24 140:8,10,13
141:11,12 148:13
150:23 170:4 171:9
188:15 205:24
206:14,20 207:13
207:16
reasons
11:17 30:23 128:14
140:9 205:16
recall
17:13 39:10 50:16
64:14 81:3 105:17
107:17 108:6,20,22
127:4 163:8 182:20
192:16 200:4
202:21 210:2
receive
36:5 41:20 106:18
received
24:18 29:5 41:17
75:14 82:5,9 102:16
102:18,22 103:17
104:7 180:17
recently
152:12 177:6
recognize
123:16 184:15
recoll
157:9
recollect
109:4
recollection
101:18 108:23 148:3
155:24 180:3 187:5
199:1 200:12
212:21
recommended
43:17,18,20
record
2:4,14 3:15 80:7
84:21 87:14 133:9
165:23 168:24
173:20 194:9
recorded
2:10 109:13 165:25
194:11 214:21
recording
3:13 166:1 215:3,6
records
42:2 115:10,11
recruited
75:5 109:2 122:8,25
recruiting
90:13 92:1 108:24
redacted
175:7
redecorate
42:15 43:10
reduced
215:4
references
179:25
referred
209:4
referring
175:2
regards
208:12
register
120:1
regular
53:4,21
regularly
22:10 23:2,6 116:11
118:7
Reid
182:24 183:2,15
reinforced
120:6
reiterate
166:11
related
11:17 16:15 215:7
relates
75:11 198:24
relating
110:5
relation
28:22
relations
30:24 66:21 76:5
98:16,20 117:25
139:15 142:13
148:21 192:4
195:25
relationship
8:8 12:5 13:4 14:6
18:7 20:18,19 21:10
25:20,23 30:19
32:15 33:4 36:15,22
37:2,20,21,25 38:19
40:13 42:19 43:4
46:6,23 47:13 49:21
50:8 63:19 65:14,23
67:16,24 68:10 71:2
91:5 95:2 104:15,17
105:6,8 115:5 129:5
135:14 136:6,7,9
137:24 138:1
...

Page 33
Page 33
15:5
Remus
158:12,15
rent
19:6 54:15
rented
19:18 22:21 133:13
repeat
117:10 164:1
repetitive
164:2
rephrase
37:15 74:3
replace
96:21
replacement
96:23
replies
168:12
report
121:8,10 205:3
reported
75:4 89:16,21 202:23
203:3,5
reporting
28:12 91:25 109:20
110:1
reports
121:20 123:3 177:6
represent
191:23
representative
189:16
requires
84:24
requiring
93:11,12
resembles
125:12
residence
77:14 202:15
residences
78:13
resonate
189:13
respect
13:7 36:13 84:23
90:12 102:1,3,3
137:22 163:18
respects
107:24
responsibilities
25:25
responsible
60:1 67:2 74:5 94:12
178:12
rest
120:7 179:14
restaurant
182:5
restructured
60:9,19,20
resuming
165:24
retirement
39:17,21
retrial
5:4
return
99:6
returned
12:15
revelation
170:7
reviewed
49:14
Revlon
160:11
rhyme
48:22
rich
59:6 142:8 207:12
RICO
168:22,23 170:15
ride
112:14
ridiculous
19:18 77:23
right
4:17 6:2,7,8 10:12
16:4 17:24 26:7,20
28:11 37:15 39:4
40:4,10 47:20 48:10
52:16 55:15 60:19
69:21 71:13,21
73:22 75:23 83:9,24
86:24 87:9 97:20
99:24 101:14 102:7
106:14 110:7 113:2
117:1,2 119:16
122:19 129:1
132:20 136:17
138:9,23 139:25
140:1 142:1 144:2
147:11 150:6 153:8
165:5,21,22,24
166:10 175:5 178:5
185:10 187:22
190:15 192:1 194:7
195:16 203:10
204:6 212:5
rightly
140:19
ring
95:10
Roberts
101:1
Rodriguez
167:13,15 168:7
171:19 173:12,18
174:15,16 176:15
Rodriguez's
167:23
role
27:1 30:16 49:11
90:10,10,15 92:5
135:4 193:17,19
rolling
42:16
Rolodex
174:15 185:3
romantic
13:3
Rome
200:8
Ron
94:18 160:10
room
2:15 17:12 32:21
76:21 139:15
141:16
Rosa
129:25 131:17
Rosa's
129:25
Rosenfeldt
166:22
Rosovsky
100:19 102:17
Rothschild
72:24
Rothstein
166:22,22 168:21
176:1,2,2
Rothstein's
168:19 170:15 171:1
royal
101:4 129:8 130:19
130:22 132:17
143:14 146:23
190:16
rubbing
114:12,17
rubbish
37:10 141:13
rule
186:15
rules
19:24
running
8:24 160:6 184:25
rustic
110:13
S
safe
17:16 137:13,14
Saffian
1:14 2:25,25 28:14
54:25 97:8 134:16
139:24 141:5,23
142:3 143:23
165:13 167:8
197:25
MAGNA9 
LEGAL SERVICES 

Page 34
Page 34
said
5:6,13,18 6:22 9:25
10:23 12:12,24 16:4
19:16 20:15 22:25
28:12 29:5,7 34:3
36:2 38:17 46:10
47:2,8 48:7 52:9
57:25 61:18 63:8
66:23 83:6 84:3
89:17 90:22 91:19
92:24 93:19 97:18
98:3 99:20,23
106:21 115:25
116:8 117:4 118:6,6
119:25 122:7 123:8
124:18 126:16
127:7 130:16
134:16 136:23
138:2,13 143:11
147:1 156:10 166:7
173:8 177:14,15,17
177:18 180:8
182:13 186:19
187:6,6 188:3
190:24 191:15
193:15,21 195:22
209:4,5,5 211:6,11
212:3,9,16,17,17,18
212:18 213:6 215:5
Saint
109:21
sake
84:19
salacious
120:5
salaried
27:17
salary
47:20
same
8:4 15:22 21:13,19
21:20 24:21 64:21
66:13 73:2 125:22
156:3 175:4 181:12
202:5
San
183:8,9
Sarah
132:23 133:21,21
134:20 135:18,18
136:1
sat
131:14
Saturday
141:8
sausage
142:18
save
169:7
saved
61:18
saw
15:11 24:18 25:1,4
36:3 37:4 38:14
44:25 53:18 59:25
61:9 74:3,4 76:16
77:22 82:10,12
84:17 89:18,18 99:1
99:2 102:21 105:11
105:17 107:19
108:1 114:18
117:16 121:11
123:20 126:3,4
139:4 143:5 145:16
157:10 160:24
161:6 162:22 163:8
164:9 176:19 177:1
180:20 181:7
189:10 195:17
197:23 198:16
203:7 212:14
saying
30:13 60:25 66:20
67:23 85:24 98:8,21
98:22 99:23 115:14
121:1 122:6,12
128:11 135:5
174:13 176:9 184:8
197:23 213:13
says
6:8 43:10 49:2 54:16
57:17 122:24
124:18 142:13
167:20 170:1,7
172:18 173:17
174:9 186:2 197:6
scary
31:9
schedule
213:10
scheme
125:9 176:2
schlep
112:13
school
54:23 75:5 191:24
SDNY
205:4
sea
157:22,22 158:16,21
second
13:14 118:3 140:10
141:11 146:4,20
163:19 168:2,13,14
second-guessing
122:5
secret
28:21,21 170:18
secretaries
176:5
secretary
185:15
security
78:17 80:17,19
see
6:16 17:14 23:12,13
23:14,16 25:5,6,7
28:22 31:13 34:24
37:1,3 38:12 52:20
52:22 57:2 59:6
74:9,14 85:21 87:15
92:25 95:7 113:20
115:10,19 121:14
121:15 125:15
138:16 140:18
142:16 143:9,15,19
148:16,17 153:4
161:14 162:11,24
173:24 175:20
196:10 198:17
202:18 206:13
211:10,16 213:23
214:4,5,19
seeing
37:6 95:14 96:9,11
107:17 123:3 163:8
179:4,9 180:7 181:3
199:1
seem
214:11
seemed
11:10 19:15 38:15
105:1...

Page 35
Page 35
sentenced
46:25 188:19
sep
114:18
separate
60:2 66:2,2 84:2 86:9
89:10 114:19
124:25 125:4 139:3
155:21 161:23
179:20 181:18
183:12,13 196:22
separately
199:14,15
separating
176:13
sequestration
19:22
serialization
146:22
serious
28:22 38:25 39:11
51:13 91:10 196:13
seriously
76:10
service
2:21 59:9
services
62:12
serving
37:23 184:22 189:5
set
131:19 148:20
setting
107:20,21 108:5
settings
105:14,15,17,18
107:5,9,15
settlements
168:25
seven-day
114:22
several
4:22 17:1 102:9,11
112:15 139:22
163:12 178:23
181:23 183:10
sex
30:25 32:22 94:18
113:4,23 116:10
118:9,22 139:14,16
143:13 167:5
172:23 191:11
192:7
sexual
22:12 30:24 75:16,17
88:12 89:9 93:13
113:3,4 116:10
139:14
sexually
75:8 94:15 120:13
share
31:1 46:14 211:17
shared
14:24 191:13
Sharon
146:8
she
5:18,18 10:1,23,25
24:8,11,19,21 38:25
39:8,10,14,15,16
58:17 72:9,17,24,25
72:25 91:1 94:15,15
94:19,24 95:5,7,7,9
95:11,14,17,19 96:3
96:3,4,12,13,15,20
96:21,22,23 97:2
117:19 122:24,24
123:3,8,20,22 125:8
130:14 131:18,19
133:8,9,12,12,13
139:11,13,17,21
142:13 143:13,13
145:4,17,17 146:2
148:7,17 169:21
170:2,4,12,13,18
176:6 186:2 188:18
197:2,3,6,10,12,13
197:23 206:9
212:17,17,18
sheer
35:13
shenanigans
28:25
She'll
72:24
she's
96:8 145:23 163:24
197:25
shift
129:3
shoes
29:19
shook
151:5
short
123:4,9 133:23
164:24
shortcomings
206:2
shortfallings
206:1
shots
82:24
should
7:14 8:3 9:25 27:9
38:11 43:13 74:24
100:12 109:6
158:23 188:18,18
209:5 211:2,10
shoulder
114:17
shouldn't
158:23 189:12
213:14
show
73:15 87:13 126:22
126:23 128:19
211:9 214:4
showed
127:12
showing
146:12
shown
52:19 169:10,11
shows
160:8
SHU
69:25
shut
113:20 159:13,14
sic
40:14 67:6
side
100:1
sign
6:6
signed
6:3,5
significant
13:21 18:23 35:15,24
signs
169:15
silence
206:22
Silicon
183:2,5
similar
20:8
simply
83:20
simultaneously
97:2 169:2
Sinaloa
57:9,10,12,17
since
7:8 157:24 171:15
197:18
single
20:12 29:25 76:16
97:4 99:2 121:7,8
121:20
sister
11:1
sit
98:23
situation
42:16 91:15 160:19
206:18 208:18
212:18...

Page 36
Page 36
142:18
sleep
18:22 21:20 113:15
sleeping
30:23
slept
18:13,17 20:12,15
slightly
89:10
slow
122:22
small
66:21,24 142:15,21
142:24 143:1
Smithsonian
159:16
social
105:14,17 107:5,9,15
108:5 149:4 154:15
154:25
socialize
162:20,23
socialized
156:12
socially
64:11 160:13 162:6
society
129:23 130:20,22
190:16 210:19
sofa
113:14
sole
170:9,20
solely
44:14
somebody
6:23 17:3 45:8 57:2
63:15 80:5 83:25
85:9 87:25 88:2,4
91:1,16 92:22 112:9
112:13 113:23
114:15 115:5
118:16,19 174:1
182:23 185:10,13
195:1,1 202:25
205:17,19 206:6
somebody's
88:20
someone
4:24 18:18 19:11
31:17 32:25 38:9
49:24 50:1 55:4
61:18 67:3,9 85:11
88:1 89:13 92:15
112:8 114:12,17
136:16 191:20
198:2 202:25
something
4:19 5:6,14 10:17
13:1 15:23 28:11
36:10 39:19 42:11
44:13,22 45:4 57:17
58:23,24 59:1 62:22
62:22,23 66:25
76:11 80:16 81:15
85:14 91:4 114:16
115:22 117:12
120:14 126:16
127:13,16,18
129:17 131:4
133:10 137:17
142:11 143:17
144:5 149:19
152:13 153:14
154:10 167:17,17
171:23 175:3 176:7
178:7,10 180:2
187:17 188:16
193:24 196:19
197:6 202:2,23
203:1,6,19 211:13
211:14 213:16
214:12
sometime
11:6 108:3 130:25
132:4 168:16
sometimes
31:1 32:20 44:18
112:2,4 117:7
193:12 196:22,23
somewhat
29:2
somewhere
24:19 96:9 174:16
Sony
6:17
sophisticated
60:16,16 61:7
sore
137:6
sorry
29:20 30:25 32:22
39:3 53:3 61:1 62:2
67:22 73:13 74:20
74:21 80:6,8,8,9
88:24 95:19 103:12
111:6 119:21
122:14,14,15,15
123:10 124:3,11
125:19 128:13
129:2 144:16,18,21
153:19 154:1,22
156:2 167:10
172:24 173:11
179:17 181:10
191:19,20 194:15
sort
13:15 15:14 38:8,9
38:25 39:1 43:4
67:4 79:12 112:22
116:10 130:4
154:14,24 176:19
sound
37:15
sounds
15:22 135:15 179:25
188:24 206:21
209:21
source
126:11,17
sources
174:4
Southern
52:14,24 53:1,19
146:10 172:6,24
175:19 186:19
spa
92:22 106:16 108:14
108:24
Space
192:4
Spanish
49:25
spas
92:19,19 93:1 112:6
speak
6:22 7:5,11,15,18
49:19 131:20
172:21
speaking
58:7
special
1:9 2:6,20 4:24 6:3
27:11
specific
49:11 101:18 140:3
148:3 178:15
specifically
14:2...

Page 37
Page 37
spoke
63:21 181:22 208:1
spoken
7:9
sponsors
160:10
sponsorship
160:9
sports
91:10
Squad
28:22
square
117:22 141:25
St
112:2,7,7,9 116:18
stable
142:6
stables
142:7
staff
35:14,16 74:6 89:24
182:1 185:8
stage
181:22
stain
11:11
Staley
67:10 70:19
stalkers
17:1
stand
212:12
standalone
82:23
standing
143:19,21
Stanley
67:14
start
2:13 3:16 8:5 37:25
65:15,23 71:5 75:24
85:13 98:16 132:24
138:2 147:9 163:19
164:19 166:18
199:11
started
3:13 12:13 32:23
38:6 56:25 57:1
58:10,22 71:2 94:1
94:9 95:1,5,7 97:6
99:15 111:18 115:7
115:8,13 116:15
139:23 140:15
157:23 159:11
166:23 190:25
207:2 210:13
starting
2:15 111:20
starts
56:8 169:14
state
19:20 26:9,10 41:22
42:1 132:21 148:23
158:1 195:19
statement
171:20
statements
4:21 168:5
states
1:1,5 2:21 26:10
192:11
stating
77:4
stay
21:19 32:20 40:17
47:4,5 49:2 68:16
90:6 92:15
stayed
12:21,24 21:13,16
23:17 29:14
staying
25:22 61:8 88:6 90:9
steal
50:5
stealing
58:6 80:5
steals
57:10
Stearns
15:1,1,23 55:17,18
56:16,21
step
213:14,15
Steven
63:16
stick
102:15,20
still
14:21 23:19 24:3,25
25:1 31:1,21,22
35:6 37:22 38:23
42:23 49:16 56:18
57:9 109:16,18
188:1
sting
167:11
stole
57:19
stolen
57:1,11,21 58:20
79:3,4
stood
143:4
stop
75:2 124:1 214:17
stopped
30:24 32:18 37:22
40:11 47:10,12 48:1
48:10 96:9 166:3
208:8,21
stories
173:1 196:22
story
9:15 29:1 63:24
75:25 125:4 139:20
140:9 144:24
146:14,17,18,23
158:22 164:19
165:18 166:16
169:14 171:4
172:20 184:6 207:1
212:4
strategies
61:6
strategy
60:22
Street
31:11,12 62:9 77:1
80:22 102:22 182:3
stretching
143:10
strip
120:14
strong
68:13 123:13 188:17
struck
159:13 214:6
structure
49:15 60:8
structured
60:9
structures
47:18
struggling
196:10
study
139:19
stuff
20:4 82:10 112:16
157:22 184:4
211:21
stunned
54:1,1
stupid
118:13
subject
93:25 168:6
submit
194:22
submitted
179:22
submitting
178:25
subpoena
41:20 42:1,2
subscribe
213:22
subsequent
97:2
subsequently
56:13 62:23 167:16
168:21
substage
MAGNA9 
LEGAL SERVICES 

Page 38
Page 38
181:23
substance
105:5
substances
191:5
success
54:12
successful
88:24
such
16:10 164:16
sucked
14:21
suddenly
98:16 145:24
sue
67:4
sugarcoat
85:1
suggest
67:21
suggested
98:2 127:3 134:12
suggesting
152:2
suicide
69:25 193:23 205:5,8
207:9
suit
167:14,24 208:13,14
suited
22:5
suits
166:20 169:5,6 171:3
171:15 208:12
209:6
sum
105:5
summoned
137:3
sun
212:1
Sunday
141:9
supervision
215:5
support
170:23
supporting
165:9
suppose
33:9 38:7 43:4
127:20 187:11
210:21
sure
3:20 11:5 12:12 15:8
23:22 24:13 28:7
36:2 37:5 39:13,14
43:3,19 46:2 52:15
55:3 62:20 64:12,16
65:10 67:2 69:5,19
71:4 76:8 86:10
91:20 93:22 98:16
98:19 100:21 114:7
114:11 134:18
136:18 152:20
160:17 164:8 169:6
172:25 180:14
187:5 190:13 194:2
194:4 196:12 204:3
209:13,17 214:8
surprise
42:16
surprised
54:2 152:18 179:12
179:12 190:11
surrogate
39:1
surrounding
12:22
surveillance
76:17,19,24
suspect
116:15 140:23 184:4
swatches
44:7,25
Sweden
130:13,14
swept
213:20
swore
212:12
synced
66:5
system
55:10,11
T
T
2:1
table
112:16 114:15,19
tabs
175:22
take
32:17 40:2,2,5 57:21
61:19,20 76:8,9
81:7 97:24 98:1
102:2 106:12 109:6
109:7 117:3 163:11
165:16,20,22 166:3
191:1,14 193:25
194:1,3,4,8 203:12
203:21 213:6,14
taken
70:8 82:2 136:18
139:18 143:16
145:19 172:1,4
takes
78:12 96:3 140:8
168:14
taking
16:24 46:11 115:13
137:15 166:20
191:1
talk
4:10,11 7:6,20 8:6,8
18:9 21:15 41:8
54:6,11 62:1 74:19
74:19,22,24 75:10
75:13 84:6 86:7,18
86:23 87:23 99:23
109:24 113:1 124:8
125:15 129:4 170:2
177:14 188:11
202:5,21 211:22,25
212:22,24
talked
37:21 41:11,13 54:11
64:23 68:24 78:16
82:19 99:17 102:4
121:21 163:12
176:14 186:25
187:23 188:23
190:3,12,15,21
191:7 194:17 202:9
202:11,20 205:6
207:23 208:7
211:21
talking
4:3 15:7 18:7 22:20
25:19 28:7 30:3
32:3 35:12,13,19
37:17,18 40:24 53:5
53:6,20 59:24 61:2
61:22 62:8 64:4,24
65:19,20 73:19
75:13 77:5,10,13,16
82:1,9 83:9 84:5
86:1,3 90:7 91:6,7
92:20 97:22,23
102:6,8 109:16
113:2 114:21,22,25
130:6 142:5 145:7,7
166:4 168:18 175:4
175:11 1...

Page 39
Page 39
55:2
tear
89:18
tears
203:8
technical
84:10
Ted
33:2,2,5,10,14 34:21
34:22 36:15 38:1,6
40:17,18 43:1 44:11
44:12,18,21 46:15
150:10,12,20
157:20,20 158:2,17
159:1,11 169:3,9
171:5,9 181:20,21
181:22 187:10
TEDx's
181:23
telephone
53:21 174:5 186:9
tell
7:5,15,17 11:3 29:3
46:16 54:19 62:25
75:21 76:4 85:9
124:16 132:25
133:4 137:5 138:22
138:23 139:3 146:5
152:18,23 156:25
165:7,11,13 178:18
188:7 204:1 211:13
212:12
telling
143:12
tells
42:18 167:1
tens
35:19
term
84:10
terms
91:8 125:9
TerraMar
157:12,16,17,18
158:20,20,21 159:6
159:7
terrible
76:13
terribly
60:15
testified
212:13
testifies
122:25
testify
5:12,13
testimonial
140:7
testimony
91:25 121:25
testosterone
115:7,13,22 116:3
191:1,16
Thailand
96:17
than
5:7,14,21 30:6 61:7
96:7 137:20 138:18
141:12 171:8 178:4
188:20 191:12
206:5 213:15
thank
4:16 6:12,13 18:2
28:15 135:17
203:16
thanks
203:17
that'll
213:6
theft
96:12
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2:4 63:4,10,10 66:18
66:25 68:10 70:25
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116:22 120:18
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7:16,17,20 16:12
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90:3
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2:19,22 5:8,15,18
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202:20 207:24
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214:18
theoretically
62:12
theorist
213:21
therapists
16...

Page 40
Page 40
207:5,6 211:9,14
212:25 213:1,3
these
35:23 75:17 82:13,22
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215:8
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33:9 152:5
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71:19
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97:25 116:21 117:9
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147:17,18
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80:2
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8:4 11:8 14:3 16:10
17:2 26:2 27:7
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213:13
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11:4 16:11,16 26:8
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185:2 205:6 209:10
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20:17 27:22 62:18
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43:13
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146:21 204:8,13
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112:2,7,9 116:18
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31:21 112:3 195:23
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151:4
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37:4 70:19 79:14
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33:6,15 34:18 64:13
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24:25
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186:15
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40:9 109:14 166:1
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11:9 144:9 169:14
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99:16 195:21,24
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142:16,18
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38:1
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29:2 37:4 66:20
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44:2
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66:15 141:25
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87:17
today
2:8 3:21,23 4:9,11,13
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18:22 19:23 21:12,13
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162...

Page 41
Page 41
54:2 66:24 68:13
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211:20
took
5:7 39:10,10 73:21
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85:17,19 144:2
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177:3
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142:1 204:15
totally
5:14
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17:20 37:7 52:13
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touched
210:5
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195:18
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116:6
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11:2 112:22,24 116:2
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164:20 172:8
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57:18
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13:23
traded
62:14
trading
55:6,10,12
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94:16 122:9 123:1
training
94:21
Tramp
139:24 140:2
transcribed
215:4
transcript
215:5
transcription
215:1,6
Transcriptionist
215:14
travel
20:24 21:17 87:13
88:8 90:14 95:5
111:18 112:3 189:8
197:10 199:24,25
201:2
traveled
21:13 60:11 104:1
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9:9 21:18,19 22:20
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28:12 202:7
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86:13 121:23 124:18
126:2 167:18
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212:7
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151:24
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35:9,9 69:22 71:15
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49:25 50:1
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33:20 34:2 110:24,25
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50:22,25 111:10,10
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4:19 7:4 21:4 24:2,3
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129:22
Trump
9:23 10:5 100:7
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106:1 113:15 140:11
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37:4,6 106:8 115:2
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3:19 6:15,21 30:22
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51:17 175:6
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215:4
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186:5,12
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61:6
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Uh-huh
53...

Page 42
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88:1 97:14 98:8
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126:2 167:4
underneath
97:6
understand
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unequivocally
78:5,6
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99:3
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210:24
United
1:1,5 2:21 192:11
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213:20
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96:6
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132:23
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169:22
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183:3,5
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207:5
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34:14
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200:17
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via
140:20
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144:1
victims
82:14,1...

Page 43
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viewed
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210:16
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200:19
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146:11 169:20 170:8
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133:13,14,16 156:4
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Page 44
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we'll
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we've
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whatever
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Whereas
111:19
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109:25 113:1...

Page 45
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whole
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2015
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2016
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