EFTA00008631.pdf

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UNITED STATES GRAND JURY 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 
• 
• 
-V- 
: November 19, 2019 Additional 
GHISLAINE MAXWELL 
(2018R01618) 
APPEARANCE 
S: 
-x 
United States Courthouse 
300 Quaroppas Street 
White Plains, New York 
June 29, 2020 
10:04 a.m. 
Assistant United States Attorney 
Assistant United States Attorney 
Acting Grand Jury Reporter 
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(Colloquy Precedes) 
(Witness Enters Room) 
(Time Noted: 10:16 a.m.) 
called as a witness, having been duly sworn by 
the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and 
testified as follows: 
BY MS. 
Q. 
Good morning. 
A. 
Morning. 
Q. 
Can you please state your full name for the 
record? 
A. 
Q. 
So I recognize that you are wearing a mask anc 
behind Plexiglas. There's a microphone in front of you, it 
you could just make an effort to speak into the mic and keep 
your voice up that would be great. 
A. 
No problem. 
Q. 
Where do you currently work? 
A. 
The Federal Bureau of Investigation. 
Q. 
What is your title? 
A. 
Special agent. 
Q. 
How long have you worked as a special agent? 
A. 
About three years, three years now. 
Q. 
Where are you currently assigned? 
A. 
I work for the -- on the Violent Crimes against 
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Children squad. 
Q. 
What are your duties and responsibilities as a 
special agent on that squad? 
A. 
We investigate crimes that have to do with child 
sexual abuse material, sextortion, exploitation, and 
enticement of minors, sex trafficking. 
GRAND JUROR. Maybe if she could take the mask 
off. I'm having -- is anybody having difficulty 
understanding her? 
MS. 
Thanks for letting me know. Would that 
be okay with you if the witness took her mask off? 
GRAND JUROR. 
We're okay with the Plexiglas, 
right? 
GRAND JUROR. 
Yeah. 
MS. 
Thanks very much. Thank you. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
All right. So I'm just going to go back and ask 
a few of those questions again just to make sure that 
everyone can hear. You testified earlier that you're a 
special agent with the FBI. Is that correct? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Where are you currently assigned? 
A. 
I work on the Violent Crimes against Children 
squad. 
Q. 
And what are your duties and responsibilities as a 
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special agent on that squad? 
A. 
We investigate crimes that involve child sexual 
abuse material, sextortion, enticement, and exploitation of 
minors, sex trafficking, international parental kidnappings. 
MS. 
Let me just pause here. Can everyone 
hear the witness? 
GRAND JUROR. 
Yes. 
MS. 
Okay. Thank you. And Special Agent 
if you could just try to keep your voice up, I really 
appreciate it. It's a little difficult under the 
circumstances. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
Have you participated in an investigation of 
Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes, I have. 
Q. 
Have you spoken to other people, including other 
law enforcement officers, about this investigation? 
A. 
Yes. 
4• 
Have you reviewed reports and documents prepared 
by others regarding this case? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is your testimony today based in part on those 
conversations with other law enforcement officers and 
documents that you have reviewed? 
A. 
Yes. 
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MS. 
Ladies and gentlemen, let me just give 
you a brief instruction. Some of the testimony that you'll 
hear today will include what's called hearsay. As you know, 
that means that the witness will not be testifying solely 
from her own observations, but that she'll also be reporting 
to you what others have told her and what she's read in 
reports and documents prepared by other people. 
Hearsay evidence is admissible in these grand jury 
proceedings, and you're free to rely on it in determining 
whether there's probable cause to indict the proposed 
defendant. 
If, however, you would like to hear the testimony 
of any other witness, you have the right to request it and 
we will make reasonable efforts to bring that witness before 
you. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
Special Agent 
we placed on the desk in 
front of you a PowerPoint that is Grand Jury Exhibit 2, 
which we're entering into the record. Do you recognize 
this? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What is it? 
A. 
It's a PowerPoint presentation to assist in 
testifying today. 
Q. 
Did you participate in preparing this exhibit in 
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connection with your testimony today? 
A. 
Yes, I did. 
Q. 
If you could please turn to the first slide. Who 
are the individuals depicted in these photographs? 
A. 
The picture on the left is Ghislaine Maxwell, and 
the picture on the right is Jeffrey Epstein with 
Ghislaine Maxwell. 
Q. 
Based on your participation in this investigation 
and your review of public source materials, have Maxwell and 
Epstein been photographed together many times over 
years? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Based on your participation in this investigation 
and your review of public materials, where is Maxwell from? 
A. 
Maxwell was born in France. She grew up in the 
United Kingdom, was educated in Oxford, and is from a 
wealthy family. 
Q. 
Is she a citizen of France, the United Kingdom, 
and the United States? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
How old is she currently? 
A. 
58. 
Q. 
Has the FBI investigated Maxwell and Epstein's 
conduct with minors during the 1990's? 
A. 
Yes 
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Q. 
Generally speaking, what have you learned about 
the relationship between Maxwell and Epstein during the 
1990's? 
A. 
Epstein and Maxwell had a romantic relationship, 
and she also worked for him; managing his homes, hiring and 
firing individuals. 
4• 
During that time period, was she one of his 
closest associates? 
A. 
Yes. 
4. 
During the course of this investigation, have you 
learned where Epstein maintained properties in the 1990's? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Where did he maintain properties? 
A. 
New York, Palm Beach, and New Mexico. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide, did he maintain an 
address in Manhattan located at 9 East 71st Street? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does this slide fairly and accurately depict the 
residence? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Can you please describe that property for the 
grand jury? 
A. 
It's a seven story home; it's located near Central 
Park. It's reportedly the largest residence in Manhattan. 
Q. 
Based on your participation in this investigation, 
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did that house include a room that was used a massage room? 
A. 
Yes, it did. 
Q. 
All right. We'll talk more about that later, but 
for now, moving on to the other properties. Did he maintain 
an address in Palm Beach, Florida, located at 358 El Brillo 
Way? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Does this slide fairly 
and accurately depict that residence? 
A. 
Yes, it does. 
Q. 
Could you please describe that property for the 
grand jury? 
A. 
It's a waterfront estate. It has an in ground 
pool and a detached dwelling or pool house on the property 
as well. 
Q. 
And from your participation in this investigation 
and your review of other materials, did that house include a 
room that was used as a massage room? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next property. Did Epstein also 
own a ranch in New Mexico? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
And turning to the next slide. Was that property 
located at 49 Zorro Ranch Road in Stanley, New Mexico? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Looking at the photograph on this slide, does this 
accurately depict that property? 
A. 
Yes, it does. 
Q. 
And we've been talking about the properties that 
Epstein owned during this time period. Did he also own a 
private jet? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is it fair to say that he was a multimillionaire 
during this time period? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During the 1990's did Epstein have an employee 
who ran his house in Palm Beach? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
What was his job? 
A. 
His job was making sure that everything in the 
house ran smoothly. He referred -- he described that 
Epstein liked to have his house run live a five-star hotel; 
that everything had to be in its proper place. So he was 
responsible for managing that. 
Q. 
Have you interviewed 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
How many times? 
A. 
Twice. 
Q. 
And is the information you're about to provide 
based on your interviews with 
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A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Did 
begin working for Epstein in the early 3 
1990's? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
And at the time 
came to work for Epstein in 
Palm Beach, was Epstein dating Ghislaine Maxwell at that 
point? 
A. 
Not at that time. 
4. 
Was it a few years before Epstein began dating 
Maxwell after 
started working there? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
From what 
told you, how did 
work change once Maxwell arrived on the scene? 
A. 
described Epstein as being more pleasant to 
work with prior to Maxwell coming into the picture. Once 
she came into the picture, he said things became more 
secretive. He wasn't allowed to be in the room with guests, 
wasn't allowed to talk with them, associate with them. It 
became a different environment. 
Q. 
You talked about some of the rules that were 
placed changing. Were there any rule changes about eye 
contact once Maxwell began staying in the Palm Beach house. 
A. 
Yes. 
wasn't allowed to make eye contact 
with Epstein and others. 
Q. 
In general, how did he describe what it was like 
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to work for Maxwell? 
A. 
He said she was very demanding; she was on top of 
him all the time. He described her as a "bitch." 
Q. 
Is that the word that he used? 
A. 
That is the word he used. 
Q. 
Shifting gears. I want to talk to you about 
someone else that you've interviewed during this 
investigation. During the course of this investigation, 
have you participated in interviews with an individual named 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
So for these purposes I'm just going to refer to 
her as 
Is that okay? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
How many times have you interviewed 
A. 
Approximately five times. 
Q. 
If you could please just page through the next two 
slides in front of you. Are these photographs of 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is it your understanding that these photographs 
depict 
from approximately ages 13 to approximately 17? 
A. 
Yes, it does. 
Q. 
Okay. Let's take a look at some of those 
photographs. I'm going to publish the next slide. Is 
date of birth 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And are these two photographs of 
A. 
Yes, they are. 
Q. 
If you could turn to the second slide of 
photographs. Are these also photographs of 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Based on your participation in this investigation 
and your interviews with 
where was she living when 
she was approximately 14? 
A. 
She was living in Palm Beach, Florida. 
Q. 
Who was she living with when she was 14? 
A. 
Her mother and her siblings. 
Q. 
What was her whole life like at that time? 
A. 
At that time, her father had passed away the year 
prior, so the family was struggling financially and having 
some difficulties. 
Q. 
What did 
father do before he passed away? 
What was his profession? 
A. 
He was involved in 
Q. 
Was 
involved in 
A. 
Yes, she was. 
Q. 
Were her siblings? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What kinds of 
were they involved in? 
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A. 
Singing, she was a singer. 
Q. 
Like what kind of singer? 
A. 
Opera. 
Q. 
In the summer of 1994, how old was 
A. 
She was 13 going on 14. 
Q. 
You testified earlier that her birthday is in 
, so did she turn 14 in 
of 1994? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did she do that summer? 
A. 
She attended an arts camp at Interlochen Certer 
for the Arts. 
Q. 
And is Interlochen Summer Arts Program located in. 
Michigan? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
meet Jeffrey Epstein and 
Ghislaine Maxwell that summer? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Did she meet them at summer camp? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did she tell you about that? 
A. 
She said that she was sitting at a picnic table 
with friends when Epstein and Maxwell walked by. They 
stopped to talk to her, engaged her in conversation, asked 
her if she liked her classes, her teachers. During that 
conversation, they found out that she was also from Palm 
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Beach and that he said that he gives scholarships to 
students. 
Q. 
How did they leave the conversation? Was there 
any contact information exchanged? 
A. 
They asked for 
phone number. 
Q. 
As part of your investigation, have you attempted 
to gather records to corroborate that 
Maxwell, and 
Epstein were all at that summer camp that summer? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
If you could turn to the next slide, please. na 
you obtained records from Interlochen for the summer of 
1994? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And what are we looking at on this slide? 
A. 
This shows who -- some of the individuals that 
were there -- were present for that camp in '94. On here is 
and 
Q. 
And have you investigated whether Maxwell and 
Epstein were also at Interlochen that summer of 1994 as 
described? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Based on your review of records from Interlochen, 
what is your understanding of Epstein's relationship with 
Interlochen? 
A. 
My understanding was that he was a donor to the 
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Q. 
1994? 
school. 
Q. 
Did he make any substantial donations? 
A. 
He did. 
Did he donate a lodge to the camp in the summer of 5 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
Did he have a long standing relationship as a 
donor to Interlochen? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Is this an excerpt o: 
a letter from Interlochen to Epstein? 
A. 
Yes, it is. 
Q. 
And does this letter thank Epstein for donating a 
scholarship lodge? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does it invite Epstein to visit in August of 1994? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
In 1994, did Epstein have a private jet? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
Have you obtained the flight logs for that jet 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Do those logs include passenger lists and the 
airport code for the airports that the plane flew into and 
out of? 
A. 
Yes. 
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4. 
Turning to the next slide. Is this a page of the 
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flight logs that you've reviewed? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And on this excerpt of the flight logs where the 
red arrow is, is that a log entry showing an August 18, 1994 
flight to an airport with the airport code TVC? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is TVC the airport code for Cherry Capital Airpor -
in Traverse City, Michigan? 
A. 
Yes, it is. 
Q. 
car? 
About how far is that airport from Interlochen by 
A. 
It's about 25 minutes give or take. 
Q. 
And who were the listed passengers on this flight? 
A. 
Jeffrey Epstein, 
(ph.), and 
(ph.). 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Is this the same 
excerpt but just with a different arrow? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Okay. So a few lines down is there a flight out 
of Traverse City just two days later on August 20th, 1994? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And do the passengers listed in the flight out of 
Traverse City include the initials G.M.? 
A. 
Yes, they do. 
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Q. 
Are those Ghislaine Maxwell's initials? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you obtained any records from Interlochen to 
indicate that Maxwell was at Interlochen in 1994? 
A. 
Yes. 
4. 
If we could turn to the next slide. Can you 
please explain for the grand jury what we're looking at on 
this slide? 
A. 
This was a letter from Interlochen explaining 
addressed to Maxwell telling her that they had found an 
envelope in the lodge that they had been staying in. 
Q. 
All right. We were talking a few moments ago 
about how 
described meeting Maxwell and Epstein at 
summer camp, and you testified that she provided them with 
her phone number. Did 
explain to you whether or not 
she had any contact with Epstein or Maxwell after she 
returned home to Palm Beach? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
When was the next time that happened? 
A. 
Shortly thereafter. 
Q. 
And how did that occur? 
A. 
She was invited to his house. So her and her 
mother went to Epstein's house to visit. 
Q. 
What did 
tell you about that visit to 
Epstein's house with her mother? 
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A. 
She said it was 
wait, can you rephrase that? 
Q. 
Of course. Did 
go to the house by herself 
or with her mother? 
A. 
With her mother. 
Q. 
Okay. And when they went to the house, what did 
they do there? 
A. 
They had tea. 
Q. 
Who was there when they had tea at the house? 
A. 
Epstein and Maxwell. 
Q. 
What did they discuss as they had tea? 
A. 
They just talked about her life and, you know, 
what she wanted to do. 
Q. 
Did Epstein make any offers? 
A. 
He said that he gives scholarships. He likes to 
mentor people. 
Q. 
How did 
mother react when Epstein said 
this? 
A. 
She was happy for her daughter and oftentimes 
referred to Epstein as 
Godfather. 
Q. 
After that occasion when they went over to the 
house, thereafter did 
subsequently begin regularly 
spending time with Maxwell and Epstein at Epstein's house in 
Palm Beach? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And did that start when she was approximately age 
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14? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did it continue until she was about age 17? 
A. 
Yes, it did. 
Q. 
And during those years, did she regularly go over 
to Epstein's house in Palm Beach and spend time with Maxwell 
and Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What happened in the summer of 1997 when 
was 17 and about to turn 18? 
A. 
She moved to New York City. 
Q. 
Why did she move to New York City? 
A. 
She wanted to pursue a career in acting and 
modeling. 
Q. 
We'll talk about that in a moment, but for now I 
want to focus on the years you talked about in Palm Beach 
from ages 14 to 17 when 
would regularly go to 
Epstein's house. In the beginning, in the first few months 
when she went there, what kinds of things did she do when 
she would visit the house when Maxwell and Epstein were 
there? 
A. 
They'd hang out by the pool, he -- they would take 
her to the movies, take her shopping. She described the 
behavior as grooming. 
Q. 
When you say grooming, did she explain what sh,
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meant by that? 
A. 
She meant that they were building a relationship 
with her, giving her things, taking her places. And then 
usually when the grooming happens, an offender will -- once 
they gain that trust, they will make the relationship turn 
sexual. 
Q. 
Now, you testified just a moment ago that 
described to you that she felt at this time period that they 
were grooming her. Is that right? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is that something that she realized at the time 
when she was 14, or is that something that she's described 
to you now? 
A. 
Something she's described now. She didn't realize 
that at the time. 
Q. 
So we'll talk a little bit more about grooming in 
a moment, but just to give context are you familiar with the 
term grooming based on your experience investigating crimes 
involving a sexual exploitation of minors? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Generally speaking, -- you were touching on this a 
moment ago, but if you just could explain in full. What is 
grooming? 
A. 
Grooming is when someone builds a relationship 
with a child. They find a vulnerability or a need and then. 
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they work on gaining a child's trust, and then oftentime 
gaining a parent's trust. Once they have that trust, they 
show that in ways that they care about them by giving them 
gifts and promises. And then once that's established, they 
then turn the relationship sexual, oftentimes making sexual 
comments and normalizing the behavior. 
4. 
Now, during these visits that you've been 
describing that 
told you about, did 
say whether 
Epstein ever gave her anything? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
What did he give her? 
A. 
He gave her cash. Sometimes he'd tell her to give 
the cash to her mom because he knew that they needed it. He 
paid for her voice lessons as well. 
Q. 
Now, you were describing how 
has 
characterized these visits now. But based on your 
conversations with her, at the time did she feel that these 
visits were strange at all? 
A. 
She thought they were strange, but Maxwell 
normalized it for her. She was like a cool older sister and 
made comments like this is what grownups do. 
Q. 
You used the phrase cool older sister. Is that a 
phrase that 
used to describe how she felt about 
Maxwell at the time and what Maxwell was like? 
A. 
Yes, those are her words. 
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Q. 
Did there come a time -- these visits when 
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saw Maxwell topless by the pool? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did she tell you about that? 
A. 
She was a little taken back, but Maxwell just 
acted normal. 
Q. 
Did 
tell you about an incident several 
months into this arrangement when she was alone with Epstein 
in the pool house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And when they were alone together, did Epstein ask 
what she wanted to do with her life? 
A. 
He did. 
Q. 
What did she say? 
A. 
She said she wanted to be an actress and a model. 
Q. 
How did Epstein respond? 
A. 
He told her that he was best friends with the 
owner of Victoria Secret. Told her that she would have to 
have photographs taken and that she got to be comfortable in 
her underwear, and not to be a prude. When she asked what 
that meant, he pulled her to his lap and masturbated. 
Q. 
What was her reaction? 
A. 
She felt paralyzed. She froze. 
Q. 
After this incident, did 
encounters with 
Epstein begin to include sexual contact? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Over time, did the sexual abuse escalate? 
A. 
It did. 
Q. 
From what she's described to you, did the abuse 
include Epstein digitally penetrating 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did it include Epstein using a vibrator on her? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she describe to you that there were times when 
Epstein would direct 
to massage him while he 
masturbated? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
explain to you what her memories are 
like of the abuse? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did she say about that? 
A. 
She said that it happened so often that it all 
kinds -- it all runs together for her. That it's hard to 
separate out some of the different instances of abuse. 
Q. 
You were describing how 
explained to you 
that the abuse began. Did that occur based on what 
told you within the first year that she met Epstein and 
Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Now, did 
also describe to you that once this 
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abuse started, Epstein would also bring her into his massatl 
room in the house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And were there times where he did this where there 
are other women present including Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was 
abused during those episodes? 
A. 
Yes, she was. 
Q. 
During these group encounters what were 
and 
the adult women wearing? 
A. 
They were usually just in their underwear. 
Q. 
Once they were all in the massage room, how wou..a 
these episodes generally start? 
A. 
They would generally start with one of the girls 
massaging Epstein. 
was usually massaging his fee-. 
Maxwell was kind of teasing the girls; she'd grab the girls' 
breasts and she would direct the girls on what to do. 
Q. 
When these episodes would start, in general was 
Epstein generally lying face down on the massage table? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What would happen as things progressed generally 
speaking from what she described to you? 
A. 
When Epstein would decide he was kind of done with 
the regular massage, he would turn over to his back and he'd 
grab whichever girl he wanted to either touch him or 
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whatever girl he wanted to touch. 
Q. 
Did these episodes include sex acts that over time 
in various instances included Epstein masturbating, Epstein 
receiving oral sex, and Epstein engaging in intercourse? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
You were describing for a moment what 
to_ 
you about Maxwell's role during these group encounters. 
Would Maxwell sometimes guide the women and give 
instructions about what to do? 
A. 
Yes, she would. 
Q. 
What would 
typically do during these 
episodes? 
A. 
She would try to not look at Maxwell because she 
gave off that sister vibe so it felt weird for her. She 
would try to be invisible in that room so they would ignore 
her as much as possible. 
Q. 
In the beginning when 
was approximately 14 
or 15, would she generally begin by just massaging Epstein's 
feet? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is that something she was told to do? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she -- you mentioned that she tried to be 
invisible. Was -- I believe that was your testimony? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
And over time -- has she described to you that 
over time she believes she became more involved in the 
sexual activity which varied in each encounter? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Were there times -- let me rephrase that. How did 
you touched on this for a moment, but just to be clear, 
how did 
describe Maxwell's attitude during these 
incidents? 
A. 
It was very casual. She acted like this was 
normal. She gave off that vibe to her and -- yeah. 
Q. 
Did that make her feel more comfortable with what 
was happening? 
A. 
It did. 
Q. 
Was 
sometimes fully nude during these 
episodes? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And during these episodes, did the abuse include 
Epstein touching 
breast? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did it include directing 
to touch Epstein's 
genitals? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Beginning when 
was approximately 14, does 
she begin to travel with Epstein and Maxwell to New York 
City on occasion? 
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A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Was that to the property you testified about 
earlier? The townhouse on the Upper East Side? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
When 
traveled to New York City, did she stay 
at Epstein's townhouse in New York City? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Did she recall that Maxwell and Epstein took her 
shopping on one of her early trips to New York City? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she remember them buying her anything? 
A. 
She recalled them buying her white cotton 
underwear. Her description was that they were, like, little 
girls underwear. 
Q. 
From ages 14 to 17, did Epstein ask 
to 
periodically fly to New York for weekends at that townhouse 
in New York? 
A. 
I'm sorry, say it again? 
Q. 
You testified that she began traveling to New York 
City at age 14. Did she then periodically travel to New 
York City in a similar manner from ages 14 to 17? 
A. 
Yes. 
4• 
Were there times when she traveled on those trips 
when she flew on Epstein's private jet? 
A. 
Yes. 
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York? 
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Q. 
Did she also sometimes fly commercially? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Was Maxwell sometimes present on the trips to New 
A. 
Yes. 
99 
Q. 
You testified earlier that 
was sexually 
abused in Palm Beach. Did she describe to you that she was 
also sexually abused on these trips to New York? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Did Maxwell encourage 
to go on these trips? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What does 
-- what did 
tell you about 
her memory of how these trips were arranged? 
A. 
She recalled that Maxwell was usually the one that 
would schedule her flights. If she was flying commercially, 
she would schedule the flights, sometimes calling her mother 
to schedule. 
Q. 
Was that her general impression of how they were 
arranged? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
In addition to the trips to New York City that you 
just described, did 
also remember traveling at least 
once to Epstein's ranch in New Mexico? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Did she remember whether or not she was sexually 
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abused in New Mexico? 
A. 
She couldn't recall. She couldn't remember. 
Q. 
In general, how would 
get to the airport in. 
Florida when she would fly on Epstein's jet? What did she 
describe to you? 
A. 
Usually a driver 
one of Epstein's drivers would 
pick her up from her house and take her to the airport. 
Q. 
Now, you testified earlier that you reviewed 
flight records for Epstein's private jet. Is that correct? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And have you reviewed records from the 1990's 
see if that there -- whether there's a person named 
listed on the records? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Is this an excerpt 
from those records? 
A. 
Yes, it is. 
Q. 
And does the red arrow point to -- just one 
moment. Does the red arrow point to a November 11th, 1996 
flight? 
A. 
Yes, it does. 
Q. 
And is this a -- does this flight log reflect that 
it was a flight from Palm Beach, Florida to Teterboro, New 
Jersey? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Is there a private airfield in Teterboro, New 
Jersey? 
A. 
Yes, there is. 
Q. 
What's it called? 
A. 
Teterboro Airport. 
Q. 
Are the passengers listed on this entry J.E.? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Are the -- do the entries also include 
olu 
friend, 
(ph.), family, III (ph.) child, 
(ph.), and 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was 
-- based on your awareness of 
date of birth and the date of this flight, was 
16 on 
the date of this flight? 
A. 
Yes, she was. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. You testified earlier 
about Teterboro Airport. What are we looking at on this 
slide? 
A. 
This is directions from Teterboro Airport to 
Epstein's residence here in Manhattan. 
Q. 
So based on your review of this map, if someone 
were to fly into Teterboro Airport and travel to New York 
City, would they -- would the most natural root be to travel 
from Teterboro Airport and crossing into New York through 
Manhattan? 
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Q. 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Is this also an 
excerpt from the flight records that you've reviewed? 
A. 
Yes, it is. 
Q. 
And does this show a May 9, 1997 flight from 
Teterboro, New Jersey to Santa Fe, New Mexico? 
A. 
Yes, it does. 
Q. 
G.M., 
And are the passengers listed on this log J.E., 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Based on your knowledge of 
birthdate and 
the date of this flight, would 
have been 16 on the 
date of this flight? 
A. 
Yes, she would've been. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Is this also an 
excerpt from the flight records? 
A. 
Yes. 
And does the red arrow point to a flight entry on 19 
May 3rd, 1998? 
A. 
Yes, it does. 
Q. 
Based on the airport codes, does this reflect that 
there is a flight on that date from Palm Beach, Florida to 
Teterboro, New Jersey? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And are the passengers listed on this log J.E., 
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G.M., E.T., 
Glen (ph.), 
(ph.), 
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(ph.), Manny (ph.), 
(ph.)? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Based on your knowledge of 
birthdate and 
the date of this flight, would 
have been 17 on this 
date? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Am I correct that you testified earlier that in 
addition to sometimes flying on Epstein's private jet, she 
also traveled on commercial airlines, is that correct? 
A. 
Yes, it is. 
Q. 
Based on your review of these flight logs, does 
every flight entry list the name of every single passenger, 
or are there times when a passenger is noted female? 
A. 
There's time where a passenger is just noted 
female. 
Q. 
I'm going to talk to you about two examples of 
that. Turning ahead two slides. Looking at slide 18, does 
this reflect a January 3rd, 1995 flight where the flight log 
says J.E., two females? 
A. 
Yes, it does. 
Q. 
And do the two entries below also just list fema_ ,
next to the initials J.E.? 
A. 
Yes, they do. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide, slide 19. Is this 
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another example of an entry like that? Focusing on the 
entry on February 12th, 1995? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does that entry also say female? 
A. 
Yes, it does. 
Q. 
Now, you testified that 
sometimes flew on 
commercial airlines and that arrangements for her travel 
were made for her to fly commercially for these trips. 
that right? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you been able to obtain commercial flight 
records? 
A. 
We tried. We were not able to obtain those 
records. 
Q. 
Why is that? 
A. 
Airlines do not keep records past a certain year. 
Q. 
Does 
recall group sexualized massages 
involving Epstein and Maxwell in both the New York and 
Florida residences during the time period we've been talking 
about? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
You testified earlier about the time that Epstein 
and Maxwell would spend together and the activities that 
they were involved in. During this time period, did 
have occasions to talk with Maxwell? 
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A. 
She -- I'm sorry, can you ask the question again? 
Q. 
During the -- beginning when she was 14 when she 
began spending time with Epstein and Maxwell and through the 
years, did 
often have conversations with Maxwell about 
her life? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did they talk about that often? 
A. 
They did. 
Q. 
Did Maxwell ask 
about her family, her 
classes, and other aspects of her life? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
You testified earlier that just before she turned 
18, 
moved to New York City. Is that right? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she go to school there in New York City for 
her senior year? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
What school did she go to? 
A. 
She went to 
Q. 
What is 
A. 
They cater to individuals who want to pursue 
careers in the arts. 
Q. 
Have you reviewed records from 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q• 
If you could turn to slide 17. Can you please 
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explain for the grand jury what we're looking at here? 
A. 
This is an excerpt from 
application to III 
On it is listed who is 
financially responsible for her, and that is 
Jeffrey Epstein. 
Q. 
From what 
told you, did Maxwell encourage 
to accept Epstein's financial help? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
When 
moved to New York City who was she 
living with? 
A. 
She lived with her mother and brother in 
Q. 
Did Epstein help pay for her rent? 
A. 
He did. 
Q. 
During that year, her senior year of high school 
when she was in New York City, did 
remain in contact 
with Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What was the nature of their contact like during 
this time period? 
her. 
A. 
During this time he was still sexually abusing 
Q. 
Did that continue to occur in his townhouse in 
Manhattan that year? 
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A. 
Yes, it did. 
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Q. 
What happened at the end of her senior year of 
high school? 
A. 
She moved to Los Angeles to pursue a career in 
acting. 
Q. 
Did she get a job as an actress when she was 18? 
A. 
She did. 
Q. 
Has 
lived in Los Angeles and worked as an 
actress on television ever since then? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
After she moved to Los Angeles did she continue 
being in touch with Epstein? 
A. 
For a short period of time. 
Q. 
Did she ultimately break contact with him? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Is 
currently pursuing a civil lawsuit 
against Maxwell and Epstein's estate? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you talked with 
about whether when she 
was a teenage girl when all of this was happening whether 
she told anyone that she was being sexually abused? 
A. 
Yes, she said she didn't tell anyone. She te_ 
like she couldn't. She -- the -- nothing was talked about 
outside of that room, so it made it so that she couldn't 
talk about it. And then she also -- her mother is Middle 
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Eastern, and her mother raised her that women are supposed 
to do what they're told even if someone is beating you. 
And when she was 13 and her father passed, she was 
-- she went to a guidance counselor at school to talk about 
it, and her mother found out about it and smacked her. So 
she felt like she couldn't talk to anyone about it. 
Q. 
Did 
mother encourage her to accept 
Epstein's financial assistance? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Have you become aware that in 2005, police 
officers from the Palm Beach Police Department executed a 
search warrant at Epstein's house at the El Brillo Way 
address in Palm Beach? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you reviewed some of the materials seized 
during the search? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did they find massage tables and sex toys? 
A. 
Yes, they did. 
Q. 
Did they find any photographs of 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was one of the photographs signed by 
A. 
Yes, it was. 
Q. 
Did it say 
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A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
During your interviews with 
did 
tell 
you how she felt about Epstein and Maxwell in the '90's when 
she was a young girl? 
A. 
She did. She expressed that she felt like they 
loved her, she felt like they were her family. That they 
supported her and that she felt she was made to feel like 
that she needed to be grateful to them. 
Q. 
Okay. Did she tell you that she felt like they 
were trying to help her? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you talked with 
about how she feels 
about this now? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What was 
demeanor like when she described 
to you what Epstein and Maxwell had done to her? 
A. 
She was upset. She recognized that now, it's 
affected her life to a great degree. She's struggled in 
relationships with opening up to people and trusting people, 
both personal and professional relationships. 
Q. 
Did she tell you that she struggled to tell anyone 
what had happened to her for most of her adulthood? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
When was the first time that you interviewed 
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A. 
Last fall. 
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Q. 
Was that the first time she'd ever reported this 
to law enforcement? 
A. 
Yes, it was. 
Q. 
Now, you testified earlier about your interviews 
with 
who worked at Epstein's Palm Beach house. 
Did he remember a girl named 
coming to the house 
during that time? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
Did he recall 
Maxwell, and Epstein being in 
the Palm Beach house together? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What was his understanding of why 
was there? 
A. 
He thought that Epstein was helping her, that' 
what Epstein had told him, and 
had told him that 
Epstein was helping her. 
Q. 
Did he ever observe Epstein interacting with 
physically? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did he see? 
A. 
He saw Epstein kiss 
the bottom. 
Q. 
cheek and pat her on 
Did he have any knowledge about what was happening 
with Epstein or Maxwell when he wasn't present? 
A. 
He didn't. 
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Q. 
Did 
ever recall picking up 
from her 
house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And when he would pick her up from her house, 
would he then bring her back to the Palm Beach house: 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did he remember who in general would tell him to 
pick up 
from her house? 
A. 
Maxwell would be the one to tell him to pick her 
up. 
Q. 
Did he recall ever driving 
to the movies? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did he tell you about that? 
A. 
That it would usually be Epstein, Maxwell, anc 
They'd go to the movies and it would usually be late 
at night. 
Q. 
Did he tell you about what his memory was about 
how old 
was? 
A. 
He said she was young and that he knew that 
because he had picked her up from school and that he knew 
she was too young to drive. 
Q. 
Switching gears. I want to talk to you about a 
different aspect of your interviews with 
Based
on what he told you about his job duties, were there ever 
times when he would have to clean Epstein's massage room? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did he tell you about that? 
A. 
He said that he found sex toys in the massage room 
and he had to wash them afterwards. 
Q. 
Aside from those experiences, was he aware of 
there being sex toys in the house? 
A. 
Yes. There was a basket of sex toys that were 
kept in Maxwell's closet. 
Q. 
Did 
stop working for Epstein in 
approximately 2002? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was he told that he was being replaced? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And was he generally aware that the person who 
replaced him was much younger? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
tell you that a few months after he 
left working for Epstein he became suicidal because of 
issues in his marriage? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did he tell you that he went to Epstein's house 
and tried to take Epstein's gun? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
Did he tell you he took several thousand dollars? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Did Epstein discover this and confront him about 
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it? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
Did 
admit to Epstein and the police what 
he'd done? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did Epstein also tell the police his gun was 
missing? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Were there any charges filed? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Was he ever arrested? 
A. 
I don't believe so. 
Q. 
And did Epstein pursue any charges about this 
incident? 
A. 
No, he didn't pursue anything. 
Q. 
Have you interviewed one of Epstein's former 
pilots? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is that pilot named 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was he one of the pilots for Epstein's private jet 
in the 1990's? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did he remember 
traveling on the je 
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in the 90's? 
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A. 
He remembered her traveling, but he didn't 
remember specifics. 
Q. 
So just to be clear, is your testimony that he 
didn't remember the specific dates of the flights, but he 
remembered her traveling on the jet during the 1990's? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And did he remember 
specifically as 
a person who traveled? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did you discuss with him the flight records that 
we talked about earlier that lists a person named 
passenger? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did he have a specific memory of those exact 
flights? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
But was he aware of any other 
jet besides 
in the 1990's? 
A. 
No, no other 
at that time. 
Q. 
Earlier when we were looking at Interlochen 
attendance records for the summer of 1994, you noted tha 
• 
right? 
as 
flying on the 
was one of the names on that record. Is that 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Is that 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you interviewed
A. 
Yes, I have. 
Q. 
Did he tell you that he remembered 
talking 
that summer at camp about having met Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did he tell you that he remembered 
going 
over to Epstein's house in Palm Beach when they were in high 
school? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did he remember that 
would often talk about 
spending time with Maxwell and Epstein during this time? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did he remember 
telling him when they were 
in high school about at least one trip to New York City that 
she took with Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did he remember 
describing Epstein's 
townhouse in Manhattan? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And does he remember 
talking often about 
Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Now, based on your interviews with 
did he 
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tell you whether he knew back then when they were in high 
school whether 
was being sexually abused by Epstein? 
A. 
He didn't know back then. 
Q. 
Did III ever meet Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
What did he remember about that? 
A. 
He remembered Epstein, Maxwell, and 
being 
near a movie theatre and he was approximately 16 at the time 
and 
would've been 15, and just the little bit of 
interaction they had. And then after that, 
had told 
him that Maxwell had said something to the effect I could 
teach 
a thing or two. 
Q. 
Is that something that he remembers 
telling 
him back then that Maxwell had said? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During the course of this investigation, have you 
participated with interviews with an individual named 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
So for today's purposes I'm just going to refer to 
her as 
How many times have you interviewed 
A. 
Approximately twice. 
Q. 
Now, does 
know 
Have they 
ever met as far as you know? 
A. 
As far as I know, no. 
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Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Are these photographs 
of 
when she was in high school? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And is her date of birth 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
When 
was approximately 16 and a junior in 
high school, where was she living? 
A. 
She was living in Arizona with her mother. 
Q. 
Does she have any siblings? 
A. 
An older sister. 
Q. 
What did her older sister do? 
A. 
Her older sister lived -- worked for Epstein. 
Q. 
Where did she work for Epstein? 
A. 
Here in New York. 
Q. 
Did there come a time in approximately December 
1995 when 
had a phone conversation with her sister 
about traveling to New York City? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did they discuss? 
A. 
They discussed her coming to New York and meetinc 
Epstein. 
Q. 
What did her sister tell 
about why she 
should meet Epstein? 
A. 
She said that he could help her with college. 
Q. 
And did she say -- did the sister say whether the 
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sister wanted her to meet Epstein or did she say whether 
Epstein wanted to meet 
A. 
Epstein wanted to meet 
Q. 
Now, let me just pause here. You testified that 
this happened in approximately December of 1995. Just for 
context, the years that we were talking about with 
was that 1994 through 1997? 
A. 
Yes. 
4. 
So is this approximately the same time period 
while what you described 
telling you happened? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
So in January of 1996, did 
fly on a 
commercial airline to New York City to spend a weekend with 
her sister and meet Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she tell you that? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During the trip, did 
tell you that she met 
Epstein at his townhouse in New York City? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Did she tell you that Epstein discussed her plan., 
for college applications and offered to help her? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What was 
first impression of 
Jeffrey Epstein? 
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A. 
She was very impressed by him. 
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Q. 
What did she -- what was her impression based on 
this conversation of what Epstein was going to do for her? 
A. 
That he was going to help her with her future 
plans for college. 
Q• 
During that trip to New York City, did she stay at 
Epstein's townhouse or at her sister's apartment? 
A. 
Her sister's apartment. 
Q. 
During that trip, did she tell you that she saw 
Epstein a second time when he took 
the movies? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
and her sister to 
What did she tell you happened at the movies? 
A. 
She said that they were sitting in the theatre and 
Epstein was between 
and her sister, and Epstein put 
his hand on her leg, he rubbed her arm and held hands with 
her. 
Q. 
From what she told you what was her impression 
about whether her sister could see what was going on? 
A. 
She felt like her sister couldn't see. 
Q. 
What was her reaction to this happening? 
A. 
She was uncomfortable. 
Q. 
After the movie did she tell her sister what had 
happened? 
A. 
No, she didn't. 
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Q. 
Did she say why not? 
A. 
She said that she knew 
-- her sister really 
liked Epstein and that Epstein could help them, so she 
didn't tell her. 
Q. 
After this trip did 
go back home to 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did Epstein contact her afterwards? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did he discuss with her her ongoing college plans? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
Did he invite her to a weekend at his ranch in New 
Mexico in the spring of 1996? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was she 16 at the time? 
A. 
Yes, she was. 
Q. 
From what she told you, what was 
impression of who would be on this trip to New Mexico? 
A. 
She knew Maxwell would be there. 
Q. 
Did she -- was she told anyone else was going to 
be present during this trip? 
A. 
She said that there would be, like, other students 
her -- kids her age. 
Q. 
And what was her understanding of who these other 
kids were and why they'd be there? Sorry, let me 
A. 
Rephrase. 
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Q. 
-- rephrase the questions. You testified that she 
was told that on this trip that there would be other 
students. Was she under the impression that there would be 
other young students like her on the trip who were also 
being mentored by Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Now, you testified just a moment ago that she was 
also told that Maxwell would be there. Are you referring to 
Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
At the point that she was told that 
Ghislaine Maxwell would be on this trip, had she ever met 
Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. 
No, she hadn't. 
Q• 
Had she heard her sister talk about 
Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
How did -- from what she described to you, how did 
her expectation that Maxwell would be on this trip make her 
feel about the trip? 
A. 
It made her comfortable. Her sister had talked 
highly of Maxwell. 
Q. 
Did 
tell you that she flew to New Mexico 
that spring when she was 16? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Did she meet Ghislaine Maxwell when she arrived in 
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New Mexico? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
How did she describe Maxwell's demeanor and 
attitude when she met her? 
A. 
She described Maxwell as being very charming. She 
gave her a tour of the house and Maxwell took 
shopping, which made her feel special. 
Q. 
What does she remember talking about with 
Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. 
They talked about school, homework, trips. 
Q. 
Did she talk with her about applying to college? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she talk about her classes in high school? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she talk with her about the homework that she 
had to do that weekend? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she talk with Maxwell about her family? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she talk with her about her home life and 
living with her mother? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
From what 
told you, when she got there who 
else was at the ranch besides Ghislaine Maxwell and 
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Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
It was just them. 
4. 
Was it just the three of them the entire weekend 
of the visit? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Were there any other school kids there? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
When they were at the ranch, from what 
told 
you, did Maxwell say anything to 
about massages? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she say anything to her about foot massages? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
tell you about that? 
A. 
Maxwell told 
to give Epstein a foot massage, 
and then she showed her and instructed her how to do it. 
was a little uncomfortable, but Maxwell was joking 
around so she just followed her lead. 
Q. 
Did 
tell you what Maxwell and Epstein took 
her to the movies that weekend? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did she tell you about that trip to t 
movies? 
A. 
She said that when they went outside the theatre 
Maxwell was joking around and pulled Epstein's pants down a 
little bit. And then once they went inside the theatre, 
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Epstein -- when they were sitting down, Epstein touched 
leg, he rubbed her arm, held her hand. And this 
time he -- 
felt that he wasn't trying to hide it from 
Maxwell. 
Q. 
What was 
reaction to all of this? 
A. 
She was uncomfortable. 
Q. 
During the same weekend, was there another 
occasion when Maxwell talked about massages? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What happened? 
A. 
Maxwell had asked 
if she ever had a massage, 
and Maxwell told her she could give her one. So 
was 
on her back and Maxwell had pulled the sheet down exposing 
her chest, she was nude from the top up, and proceeded to 
massage around her chest and breast area. 
Q. 
From what 
told you when she was describing 
to you what you just described to the grand jury, how did 
she feel while this was happening? 
A. 
She felt really uncomfortable. 
Q. 
Did 
also tell you about an incident that 
happened one morning when she was in New Mexico? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did she tell you happened? 
A. 
She said she was in bed and Epstein came into the 
room and told her that he wanted to cuddle. So he laid down 
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next to her and spooned her. She told him she had to go tc 
the bathroom to get out of the situation. 
Q• 
What was her reaction to that when Epstein got 
into her bed? 
A. 
She was uncomfortable. She didn't know what to 
do. 
Q. 
Did 
go back home to 
when the weekend 
was over? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Did she tell anyone when she got home about what 
happened? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Is that for the same reason you described earlier? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did Epstein end up paying for 
to go on a 
trip to Thailand that summer? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
have any contact with Maxwell or Epstein 
after that trip? 
A. 
Not that she recalled. 
Q. 
When you interviewed 
what was her demeanor 
like when she described her interactions with 
Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. 
She became upset, emotional. 
Q. 
Is 
currently pursuing a civil lawsuit 
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against Maxwell and Epstein's estate? 
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A. 
Yes, she is. 
Q. 
What does 
do for a living now? 
A. 
She's a psychologist who works with trauma 
victims. 
Q. 
During the course of this investigation, have you 
interviewed someone named 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
For today's purposes, I'm just going to refer to 
her as 
How many times have you interviewed 
approximately? 
A. 
Approximately three times. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Is this a photograph 
of 
that she provided to you? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And did she tell you that this was taken when she 
was in -- approximately 16 or 17 years old? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is 
date of birth 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
grow up in England? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Did she tell you that there came a point when she 
met Ghislaine Maxwell when she was about 17? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
How did she tell you that they met? 
A. 
She said they met through a mutual friend. 
Did she tell you that this would've happened in 4 
around 1994 or 1995? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And is that within the same time period that we've 
been talking about today? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What happened after she was introduced to 
Ghislaine Maxwell from what she told you? 
A. 
She said Maxwell treated her like they were 
sisters. Her quote was, "like naughty school girls" is how 
Maxwell treated with -- her. 
Q. 
Did she tell you that Maxwell seemed to 
immediately take an interest in her? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she tell you that they began spending time 
together in London? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And just to be clear, was Maxwell in her 30's 
while this was happening? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did Maxwell -- did 
ever remember Maxwell 
ever talk about having a boyfriend named Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
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Q. 
What did she tell 
about that? 
A. 
Maxwell told 
that Epstein was going to 
like her. 
Q. 
Did there come a time when she was 17 that 
described that Maxwell introduced her to Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
How did she describe that occurring? 
A. 
Epstein had flown to London. He was at Maxwell's 
residence in London and Maxwell had called 
over. So 
went over and when she got there, Maxwell was saying 
to Epstein kind of -- the words 
used was giving him 
a resume of her attributes. Saying she's so pretty, she's 
so strong, and then Maxwell asked her to give Epstein a 
massage. 
Q. 
Now, you testified just a moment ago that Maxwell 
-- that 
described to you that Maxwell asked her to 
give Epstein a massage during this first meeting. Is that 
correct? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did Maxwell say to her in sum and substance since 
you're so strong I'd appreciate it if you give Jeffrey a 
massage because he needs a massage every day or I get in 
trouble? 
A. 
Yes, she said that. 
Q. 
Is that what 
said to you in sum and 
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substance? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
When that happened, did 
remember Maxwell 
leading her to a room in the house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q• 
What happened? 
A. 
When 
went in the room, Epstein was in a 
robe. He took his robe off and she started massaging him, 
and then he touched 
penis. 
Q. 
What does 
did this? 
A. 
Don't be frigid. 
Q. 
and pulled her hand to his 
remember Epstein saying when he 
What was her reaction to this happening from what 
she told you? 
A. 
She was taken back by it. 
Q. 
When this episode ended and 
left the room 
did she tell you that she remembered Maxwell being just 
outside the room when she left? 
A. 
Yes. 
4• 
Did she remember Maxwell saying to her, did you 
have fun? Did he like it? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does she remember Maxwell calling her several days 
afterwards or at some short period of time afterwards? 
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A. 
Yes, she did. 
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Q. 
Did 
remember Maxwell saying to her on the 
phone call in sum and substance, well, aren't you a clever 
girl, Jeffrey was very impressed? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Shortly after this incident, does she remember 
Maxwell asking her to come back over to the house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And when she got there did she tell you she 
remembered Maxwell saying to her, in substance, thank God 
you're here; if it's not you or someone it falls to me? 
A. 
Yes. 
4• 
Does she remember Maxwell bringing her up the 
stairs to the house on that occasion? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
What does she remember happening when Maxwell 
opened the door to the room? 
A. 
Epstein was standing there nude. 
4• 
Does she remember Maxwell then saying I'll leave 
you guys to it? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
After these first two encounters, did Epstein and 
Maxwell invite 
to travel with them to Palm 
Beach, U.S. Virgin Islands, Paris, and New York for the next 
several years? 
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A. 
Yes, they did. 
Q. 
Does she remember whether these trips began before 
or after her 18th birthday? 
A. 
She couldn't remember specifically. 
Q. 
Before these trips started, you were describing 
earlier when 
told you about the time that she spent 
with Maxwell when they first met when she was 17. Is that 
right? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During these conversations when she would spend 
time with Maxwell, did 
remember talking with her 
about her life and her family, and her personal 
circumstances with Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Now, you testified a moment ago that 
told 
you that at some point she began traveling with Maxwell and 
Epstein, and she wasn't sure whether or not whether these 
trips started before she turned 18. Is that right? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
describe to you that Epstein sexually 
abused her during these trips, typically in the context of a 
sexualized massage? 
A. 
Yes, he did. 
Q. 
Did Epstein give her money? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Did she tell you that he would give her cash? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she describe to you that the abuse included, 
among other things, Epstein groping her and using a massager 
device on her genitals? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And was the massager device like a vibrator? 
A. 
Yes, it was. 
Q. 
From what 
told you, was Maxwell in the 
room during these encounters? 
A. 
Maxwell wasn't in the room. 
Q. 
What did she tell you would typically happen when 
left the room after these episodes; was Maxwell 
typically nearby? 
A. 
Yes. She was usually right near the room. 
Q. 
Does she remember Maxwell asking her, after she'd 
leave the room from one of these sessions, 'how was it, is 
he happy?' 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she also tell you that she remembers Maxwell 
telling her at some point, in sum and substance, 'you know 
how he is when he's not happy and you know what makes him 
happy, he has to have sex all the time, he's like a super 
hero?' 
A. 
Yes, she said that. 
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Q. 
Did 
tell you about an incident that 
occurred after she turned 18 in Palm Beach when she was 
staying at the Palm Beach house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did the incident she described to you involve a 
school-girl outfit? 
A. 
Yes, it did. 
Q. 
Could you please describe for the grand jury what 
told you about that incident? 
A. 
said that Maxwell had shown her to a 
bedroom and on the bed was a school-girl outfit and Maxwell 
told her when -- 
confronted her about it and Maxwell 
said 'well, I thought it would be adorable if you gave 
Jeffrey his tea in this.' So 
felt like she had to 
put it on so she put it on, took Epstein his tea, and 
Epstein then slapped her on the buttocks and reached under 
the skirt and touched her. 
Q. 
What was her demeanor like when she described this 
incident to you? 
A. 
She was crying; she was very upset. 
Q. 
When 
described seeing the school-girl 
outfit and talking to Maxwell about it, did she remember 
Maxwell telling her 'don't be so frigid?' 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does she remember that later in the day, after she 
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had delivered Epstein his tea and he assaulted her, does she 
remember Maxwell telling her 'I heard you did well?' 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During the years that 
was in contact with 
Maxwell and Epstein did she remember whether Maxwell would 
ever ask her if she knew any other girls who could massage 
Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does she remember Maxwell saying, in sum and 
substance, 'do you know anyone who can give him a blow job 
today; I don't feel like it?' 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does she remember Maxwell saying, when she asked 
her to bring other girls, that they have to look young at 
least? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
From your conversations with 
did she tell 
you whether or not she ever brought any other girls? 
A. 
didn't bring any girls. 
Q. 
Did she tell you why not? 
A. 
She didn't want anyone else to go through that. 
Q. 
From your interviews with 
did she tell you 
that there came a time when she was in her early 20s when 
she stopped traveling with Maxwell and Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Was she struggling with substance abuse at tha 
point? 
A. 
Yes, she was. 
Q• 
Did she tell you that she got sober in her 20s? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
What is her current profession? 
A. 
She runs a non-profit for people who struggle with 
addiction and trauma. 
Q. 
Did 
provide you with several emails that 
she exchanged with Epstein in the early 2000s? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
And were those emails very friendly in tone? 
A. 
Yes, they were. 
Q. 
What did she say to you when you talked with her 
about those emails? 
A. 
She said she didn't, at the time, want to 
acknowledge what was going on to her; that looking back on 
it's different. 
Q. 
Did your squad at the FBI execute a search warrant 
at Jeffery Epstein's townhouse in Manhattan in July 2019? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did you personally participate in the search of 
Epstein's residence? 
A. 
Yes, I did. 
Q. 
Did the townhouse include a massage room? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you yourself been in that massage room? 
A. 
Yes, I have. 
Q. 
Could you please describe for the grand jury what 
that massage room looked like? 
A. 
It was dark. It had dark draperies covering the 
windows. There was a massage table. There were oils. 
There was a hand-held massager in there along with 
handcuffs, a whip, and along the walls were nude photographs 
of young females. 
Q. 
I believe you testified a moment ago tha-
told you that there was a time when Maxwell 
asked her to wear a school-girl outfit for Epstein when they 
were in Palm Beach. Did you find a school-girl outfit in 
Epstein's New York townhouse? 
A. 
Yes, we did. 
Q. 
Where did you find it? 
A. 
It was found in a room next to the massage room. 
Q. 
And to be clear, did the FBI find sex toys during 
the search? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What was found? 
A. 
Butt plugs, dildo, vibrators. 
Q. 
We've talked about three minor girls today, 
and 
is that right? 
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A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Have you reviewed the proposed indictment, marked 
Grand Jury Exhibit 1? 
A. 
Yes, I have. 
Q. 
Is 
the individual referred to as Victim 1 in 
the proposed indictment? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is 
the individual referred to as Victim 2 in 
the proposed indictment? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is 
the individual referred to as Victim 3 
in the indictment? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During all of Maxwell's interactions with the 
victims when they were underage girls, based on the 
timeframe and your knowledge of Maxwell's birth date, was 
she in her 30s? 
A. 
Yes, she was. 
Q. 
Just one moment. All right. Switching gears. 
Have you become aware that in or about 2016 Maxwell gave 
sworn testimony in a civil deposition in connection with a 
lawsuit? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Could you please explain for the grand jury what 
is a deposition? 
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A. 
It is a statement made under oath. 
Q. 
And in the course of civil litigation is it common 
for witnesses or the parties of the lawsuit to give a 
deposition under oath where they testify about the substance 
of the case? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And is deposition testimony live and in person and 
under oath? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is a court reporter present when a deposition 
takes place? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Now before we talk about Maxwell's deposition 
testimony, I want to talk with you about the lawsuit that 
the testimony was about. 
Have you become aware that in or 
about 2015 an individual named 
filed a
lawsuit against Ghislaine Maxwell here in the Southern 
District of New York? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And was 
suing Maxwell for defamation? 
A. 
Yes, she was. 
Q. 
Was the lawsuit captioned 
against 
Ghislaine Maxwell with Docket Number 15-CV-7433 here in the 
Southern District of New York? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Generally speaking, in broad strokes, what was the 
lawsuit about? What was the claim that 
was bringing 
against Maxwell? 
A. 
had stated that she had been sexually 
abused by Epstein and Maxwell as a minor. Maxwell came 
forward publically and called her a liar. So 
her for defamation. 
MS. 
So just a small legal instruction on 
this topic. Ladies and gentleman, I instruct you that the 
allegations in the lawsuit are not being presented to you as 
evidence that those incidents occurred. I instruct you that 
you should not consider those allegations for their truth; 
instead, the circumstances of the lawsuit are being 
presented to you so that you can consider the context of the 
case and the circumstances under which Maxwell made 
statements under oath. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
Turning back to the deposition. Did Maxwell's 
deposition take place over two different days? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
On both days did she give testimony in Manhattan? 
A. 
Yes, she did. 
Q. 
Is that where the deposition took place? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And on both days was Maxwell sworn under oath? 
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A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
If you could flip through the remaining slides in 
the presentation. Do those slides contain true and accurate 
excerpts of the transcript of that deposition? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide, is this the cover page 
of the transcript of the first deposition that took place on 
April 22, 2016? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And does it have the case caption on it? 
A. 
Yes, it does. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide, is this an excerpt from 
the transcript? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
I imagine the grand juries can't read it from 
their seats so if you could read it with me, I'll read the 
questions and if you could read the answers. 
Question: "Did Jeffrey Epstein have a scheme to 
recruit underage girls for underage massages?" 
And it appears there was an objection from the 
lawyer. 
Question: "If you know." 
A. 
Answer: "I don't know what you are talking about." 
Q. 
Just to be clear with the question and answer, is 
the answer here Maxwell's testimony? 
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A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Just to be clear, you testified earlier that 
participated in sexualized massages with Epstein and 
Maxwell; is that right? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And 
was a minor when that occurred? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And did you also testify earlier that Maxwell --
that 
told you that Maxwell asked her to 
give Epstein massages when she was a minor? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
If you could turn to the next slide, please. 
this another excerpt from that same deposition? 
A. 
Yes, it is. 
Q. 
All right. I'll read the question and you can 
read the answer. 
Question: "List all the people under the age of 18 
that you've interacted with at any of Jeffrey Epstein's 
properties?" 
A. 
Maxwell's answer: "I'm not aware of anybody that I 
interacted with, other than obviously 
who was 1.7
at this point." 
Q. 
Just to be clear, you testified earlier about two 
girls under the age of 18 who interacted with Maxwell at 
Epstein's properties; is that correct? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And those individuals were 
and 
who told you that, correct? 
A. 
Yes, that's correct. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide, is this the cover page 
of the transcript from the deposition that took place on 
July 22, 2016? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And again, was this Maxwell giving testimony as 
part of the testimony under oath here in Manhattan? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
If you could please turn to the next slide. Is 
that an excerpt -- are these two excerpts from that 
deposition? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Again, I'll read the questions if you could please 
read the answers. 
Question: "Were you aware of the presence of sex 
toys or devices used in sexual activities in Mr. Epstein's 
Palm Beach house?" 
There's an objection from the lawyer. 
A. 
Maxwell's answer: "No, not that I recall." 
Q. 
"Do you know whether Mr. Epstein possessed sex 
toys or devices used in sexual activities?" 
There's an objection from the lawyer. 
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A. 
Maxwell's answer: "No." 
Q. 
Just to be clear, you testified earlier that 
told you he found sex toys in the massage room 
in Palm Beach and also that he had seen that Maxwell had a 
basket of sex toys in her closet there; is that correct? 
A. 
Yes, that's correct. 
Q. 
And is it correct that you testified earlier that 
Epstein had used a vibrator on 
is that 
correct? 
A. 
Yes, that's correct. 
Q. 
And did you also testify earlier that 
told you he did that, as well? 
A. 
Yes, that's correct. 
Q. 
And did you also testify earlier that sex toys 
were found by the police in the Palm Beach house in 2005; is 
that right? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And did you also testify earlier that the FBI 
found sex toys in Epstein's New York City townhouse in 2019? 
A. 
Yes, that's correct. 
Q. 
If you could please turn to the next slide. This 
is on page 27. Is this -- are these also excerpts from that 
same deposition? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q• 
Again, I'll read the questions if you could please 
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read the answers. 
Questions: "Other than yourself, and the blonde 
and brunette that you have identified as having been 
involved in three-way sexual activities, with whom did 
Mr. Epstein have sexual activities?" 
There's an objection from the lawyer. 
A. 
Maxwell's answer: "I wasn't aware that he was 
having sexual activities with anyone when I was with him 
other than myself." 
Q. 
Question: "I want to be sure that I'm clear, is i-
your testimony that in the 1990s and 2000s you were not 
aware that Mr. Epstein was having sexual activities with 
anyone other than yourself and the blonde and brunette on 
those few occasions when they were involved with you?" 
A. 
Maxwell's answer: "That is my testimony. That is 
correct." 
Q. 
Have you reviewed the deposition transcript --
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
-- in full? Now, the excerpt we just read has a 
reference to a blonde and brunette. Are those individuals 
completely different from the individuals we've been talking 
about today? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Just to be clear, is it correct that you testified 
earlier that 
and 
told you that Epstein 
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sexually abused them repeatedly; is that correct? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And did you also testify earlier that Maxwell was 
occasionally present when Epstein was abusing 
based 
on what she told you? 
A. 
Yes, that's correct. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide, is this also an excerpt 
from the same deposition? 
A. 
I'm sorry? 
Q. 
I'm so sorry. Turning to the next slide, on page 
28, is this also an excerpt from the same deposition? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Thank you. Okay. Again, if we could read that 
together I'll take the question if you could take the 
answer. 
Question: "Let's just tie that down. Is it your 
testimony that you've never given anybody a massage?" 
A. 
Maxwell's answer: "I have not given anyone a 
massage." 
Q. 
"You never gave Mr. Epstein a massage; is that 
your testimony?" 
A. 
Maxwell's answer: "That is my testimony." 
Q. 
"You never gave 
a massage; is that 
your testimony?" 
A. 
Maxwell's answer: "I never gave 
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1 
massage." 
2 
Q. 
Just to be clear, as you testified earlier, is it 
3 
correct that 
told you that Maxwell gave her a 
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massage when they were in New Mexico? 
5 
A. 
Yes. 
6 
Q. 
Have you told the grand jury everything that you 
7 
know about this case or have you just answered the questions 
8 
that I've asked? 
9 
A. 
I've just answered the questions you've asked. 
10 
Q. 
And when you testified about the documents that 
11 
you reviewed or the conversations that you had with others, 
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were you testifying to the exact words used or just the 
13 
substance of the documents or conversations? 
14 
A. 
The substance? 
15 
Q. 
And are you willing to return to the grand jury if 
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the grand jury has any further questions for you? 
17 
A. 
Yes. 
18 
MS. 
With the Foreperson's permission I'd 
19 
ask that the witness be excused at this time. 
20 
FOREPERSON. 
You're excused. 
21 
MS. 
Thank you. 
22 
(Witness Excused) 
23 
(Time Noted: 11:41 a.m.) 
24 
(Colloquy Follows) 
25 
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
Court Reporting Transcription 
D.C. Area 301-261-1902 
Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
GM_GLSDNY_00000205 
EFTA00008705

FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
Court Reporting Transcription 
D.C. Area 301-261-1902 
Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
GM_GLSDNY_00000206 
EFTA00008706

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CERTIFICATE 
I hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and 
accurate transcription, to the best of my skill and ability, 
from my electronic notes of this proceeding. 
July 6, 2020 
Date 
Acting Grand Jury Reporter 
Free State Reporting, Inc. 
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
Court Reporting Transcription 
D.C. Area 301-261-1902 
Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
GM_GLSDN Y_00000207 
EFTA00008707

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