EFTA00008744.pdf

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UNITED STATES GRAND JURY 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 
-x 
-V- 
: January 19, 2021 Additional 
GHISLAINE MAXWELL 
(2018R01618) 
APPEARANCE 
S: 
x 
United States Courthouse 
Foley Square 
New York, New York 
March 29, 2021 
10:05 a.m. 
States Attorney 
d States Attorney 
M
inury 
Reporter 
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
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D.C. Area 301-261-1902 
Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
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(Colloquy Precedes) 
(Witness Enters Room) 
(Time Noted: 10:14 a.m.) 
called as a witness, having been duly sworn by 
the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and 
testified as follows: 
BY MS. 
Q. 
Good morning. 
A. 
Good morning. 
Q. 
Would you please state your name for the record? 
A. 
Detective 
Q. 
Detective 
where do you work? 
A. 
New York City Police Department. 
Q. 
I'm going to ask you to please keep your voice up, 
and speak as slowly as you can. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER. 
And you can pull the microphone toward you so that 
everyone in this big room can hear you. Thank you. Where 
do you work? 
A. 
New York City Police Department. 
Q. 
What is your title there? 
A. 
Detective. 
Q. 
How long have you been with the NYPD? 
A. 
About 15 years. 
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03/29/2021 
3 
Q. 
Are you currently part of a federal task force? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What task force? 
A. 
The Child Exploitation and Human Trafficking Task 
Force with the FBI. 
Q. 
What is your title on the task force? 
A. 
Task force officer. 
Q. 
How long have you been a task force officer with 
the FBI? 
A. 
Since about 2017. 
Q. 
Generally, what are your duties and 
responsibilities on the task force? 
A. 
We address cases of child sex-trafficking, adult 
sex-trafficking, child pornography, and child enticement. 
Q. 
Over the last, approximately, three years have you 
been involved in an investigation into Jeffrey Epstein and 
his associates, including an individual named 
Ghislaine Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During your investigation have you spoken with 
other people, including other law enforcement officers? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q• 
Have you reviewed reports and documents prepared 
by others, and transcripts of testimony in other court and 
grand jury proceedings? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Will your testimony today be based in part on 
those conversations and documents that you have reviewed? 
A. 
Yes. 
MS. 
Ladies and gentlemen, some of the 
testimony you are going to hear from Detective 
will 
include hearsay. That means he is not going to testify only 
from his own personal observations, he will also be 
testifying about what other people have told him and what he 
has read in documents. 
Hearsay evidence, as you know, is admissible and 
proper in these proceedings, and you are permitted to rely 
on it in determining whether there is probable cause to 
indict the defendant, but if you want to hear testimony from 
other witnesses, or see particular documents, please let me 
know, and I will make my best efforts to bring those before 
you. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
Detective 
over the course of your 
investigation has another member of the FBI task force 
you're a part of testified before a different grand jury 
about the facts of this case? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
I'd like to ask you to please pick up what should 
be in front of you and marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 3. Do 
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you recognize that? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is this document a fair and accurate transcript of 
testimony given by FBI Special Agent 
before a 
different grand jury, on June 29, 2020? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
I'd like to read back a portion of this 
transcript. We will start at Page 2, Line 18. I will read 
the questions, you read the answers. 
Q. 
"Where do you currently work?" 
A. 
"The Federal Bureau of Investigation." 
Q. 
"What is your title?" 
A. 
"Special agent." 
Q. 
"How long have you worked as a special agent?" 
A. 
"About three years now." 
Q. 
"Where are you currently assigned?" 
A. 
"I work on the Violent Crimes Against Children's 
Squad." 
Q. 
"What are your duties and responsibilities as - 
special agent on that squad?" 
A. 
"We investigate crimes that have to do with child 
sexual abuse material, sextortion, exploitation, and 
enticement of minors, sex-trafficking." 
MS. 
You can stop there. I'll now jump to 
Page 4, line 13. 
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BY MS. 
Q. 
"Have you participated in an investigation of 
Ghislaine Maxwell?" 
A. 
"Yes, I have." 
Q. 
"Have you spoken to other people, including other 
law enforcement officers about this investigation?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Have you reviewed reports and documents prepared 
by others regarding this case?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is your testimony today based in part on those 
conversations with other law enforcement officers and 
documents that you have reviewed?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
MS. 
Stepping out of the read back. At 
this point the AUSA provided the same hearsay instruction to 
the grand jury, at that time, as I just provided to you all. 
So that instruction applies with respect to 
Detective 
testimony the same way it applies to 
testimony. 
We can now go down to Page 5, line 17. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
we've placed on the desk in 
front of you a PowerPoint that is Grand Jury Exhibit 2 which 
we're entering into the record. Do you recognize this?" 
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A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What is it?" 
A. 
"It's a PowerPoint presentation to assist in 
testifying today." 
Q. 
"Did you participate in preparing this Exhibit in 
connection with your testimony today?" 
A. 
"Yes, I did." 
Q. 
"If you could please turn to the first slide. Who 
are the individuals depicted in these photographs?" 
A. 
"The picture on the left is Ghislaine Maxwell, and 
the picture on the right is Jeffrey Epstein with 
Ghislaine Maxwell." 
Q. 
"Based on your participation in this investigation 
and your review of public source materials, have Maxwell and 
Epstein been photographed together many times over the 
years?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Based on your participation in this investigation 
and your review of public materials, where is Maxwell from?" 
A. 
"Maxwell was born in France, she grew up in United 
Kingdom, was educated in Oxford and is from a wealthy 
family." 
Q. 
"Is she a citizen of France, the United Kingdom, 
and the United States?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q. 
"How old is she currently?" 
A. 
"Fifty-eight." 
Q. 
"Has the FBI investigated Maxwell and Epstein':
conduct with minors during the 1990s?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Generally speaking, what have you learned about 
the relationship between Maxwell and Epstein during the 
1990s?" 
A. 
"Epstein and Maxwell had a romantic relationship, 
and she also worked for him; managing his homes, hiring and 
firing individuals." 
Q. 
"During that time period, was she one of his 
closest associates?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"During the course of this investigation have you 
learned where Epstein maintained properties in the 1990s?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Where did he maintain properties?" 
A. 
"New York, Palm Beach, and New Mexico." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide, did he maintain an 
address in Manhattan located at 9 East 71st Street?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Does this slide fairly and accurately depict that 
residence?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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4• 
"Can you please describe that property for the 
grand jury?" 
A. 
"It's a seven-story home. It's located near 
Central Park. It's reportedly the largest residence in 
Manhattan." 
Q. 
"Based on your participation in this 
investigation, did that house include a room that was used 
as a massage room?" 
A. 
"Yes, it did." 
Q. 
"All right. We'll talk more about that later but 
for now, moving on to the other properties. Did he maintain 
an address in Palm Beach, Florida, located at 
358 El Brillo Way?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Does this slide 
fairly and accurately depict the residence?" 
A. 
"Yes, it does." 
Q. 
"Could you please describe that property for the 
grand jury?" 
A. 
"It's a water-front estate. It has an in-ground 
pool and a detached dwelling, or pool house, on the property 
as well." 
Q. 
"Aside -- and from your participation in this 
investigation and your review of other materials, did that 
house include a room that was used as a massage room?" 
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A. 
Q. 
"Yes." 
"Turning to the next property. Did Epstein also 
own a ranch in New Mexico?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"And turning to the next slide, was that a 
property located at 49 Zorro Ranch Road in Stanley, 
New Mexico?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
4. 
"Looking at the photograph on this slide does this 
accurately depict that property?" 
A. 
"Yes, it does." 
Q. 
"And we've been talking about the properties that 
Epstein owned during this time period. Did he also own a 
private jet?" 
A. 
4• 
"Yes." 
"Is it fair to say that he was a multi-millionaire 
during this time period? 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"During the 1990s did Epstein have an employee, 
■ 
who ran his house in Palm Beach?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"What was his job?" 
A. 
"His job was making sure that everything in the 
house ran smoothly. He referred -- he described that 
Epstein liked to have his house run like a five-star hotel; 
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that everything had to be in its proper place. So he was 
responsible for managing that." 
Q. 
"Have you interviewed 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"How many times?" 
A. 
"Twice." 
Q. 
"And is the information you're about to provide 
based on your interviews with 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did 
begin working for Epstein in the early 
1990s?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"At the time 
came to work for Epstein in 
Palm Beach, was Epstein dating Ghislaine Maxwell at that 
point?" 
A. 
"Not at that time." 
4• 
"Was it a few years before Epstein began dating 
Maxwell after 
started working there?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
MS. 
I'm going to step out of the read 
back. It sounds like the grand jurors are having difficulty 
hearing. Are you having difficulty hearing me, the witness, 
or both? 
GRAND JURORS. 
The witness. 
MS. 
So Detective 
I'm going to ask 
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you to please keep your voice up. Try to shout into the 
microphone. Can you pull the microphone toward you? Lift 
it and pull it all the way up to you? Thank you. We left 
off reading at Page 10, line 12. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
"From what 
told you, how did 
work change once Maxwell arrived on the scene?" 
A. 
''I'll' described Epstein as being of more 
pleasant to work with prior to Maxwell coming into the 
picture. Once she came into the picture, he said things 
became more secretive. He wasn't allowed to be in the room 
with guests, wasn't allowed to talk with them, associate 
with them; it became a different environment." 
MS. 
Detective 
I'm going to ask you 
to take the microphone and try to put it right under where 
your mouth would be when you're reading because as you're 
looking down, you're moving your mouth away from the 
microphone. Thank you. Picking back up at Page 10, 
line 20. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
"You talked about some of the rules that were 
placed, changing. Were there any rule changes about eye 
contact once Maxwell began staying at the Palm Beach house?" 
A. 
"Yes. 
wasn't allowed to make eye contact 
with Epstein and others." 
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MS. 
We're going to jump now to Page 11, 
Line 6. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
"Shifting gears. I want to talk to you about 
someone else that you've interviewed during this 
investigation. During the course of this investigation, 
have you participated in interviews with an individual named 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"So for these purposes, I'm just going to refer t 
her as 
. Is that okay?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"How many times have you interviewed 
?" 
A. 
"Approximately five times." 
Q. 
"If you could please just page through the next 
two slides in front of you? Are these photographs of 
II 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is it your understanding that these photographs 
depict 
from approximately ages 13 to approximately 
17?" 
A. 
"Yes, it does." 
4• 
"Okay. Let's take a look at some of those 
photographs. I'm going to publish the next slide. 
's date of birth 
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A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Are these two photographs of 
?" 
A. 
"Yes, they are." 
Q. 
"If you could turn to the second slide of 
photographs, are these also photographs of 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
?It 
"Based on your participation in this investigation 
and your interviews with 
, where was she living when 
she was approximately 14 years old?" 
A. 
"She was living in Palm Beach, Florida." 
Q. 
"Who was she living with when she was 14?" 
A. 
"Her mother and her siblings." 
Q. 
"What was her whole life like at that time?" 
A. 
"At that time her father had passed away the year 
prior, so the family was struggling financially and having 
some difficulties." 
Q. 
"What did 
's father do before he passed away? 
What was his profession?" 
A. 
"He was involved in 
Q. 
"Was 
.'
involved in 
?" 
A. 
"Yes, she was." 
Q. 
"Were her siblings?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What kinds of 
were they involved in?" 
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A. 
"Singing. She was a singer." 
Q. 
"Like, what kind of singer?" 
A. 
"Opera." 
Q. 
"In the summer of 1994, how old was 
A. 
"She was 13 going on 14." 
Q. 
"You testified earlier that her birthday was in 
. So did she turn 14 in 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did she do that summer?" 
A. 
"She attended an arts camp at Interlochen Center 
for the Arts." 
Q. 
"And is Interlochen summer arts program located in 
Michigan?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did 
meet Jeffrey Epstein and 
Ghislaine Maxwell that summer?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Did she meet them at summer camp?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did she tell you about that?" 
A. 
"She said that she was sitting at a picnic table 
with friends when Epstein and Maxwell walked by. They 
stopped to talk to her, engaged her in conversation, asked 
her if she liked her classes; her teachers. During that 
conversation she found out that she was also from Palm Beach 
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and that he said he gives scholarships to students." 
Q. 
"How did they leave the conversation? Was there 
any contact information exchanged?" 
A. 
"They asked for 
Q. 
's phone number." 
"As part of your investigation have you attempted 
to gather records to corroborate that 
, Maxwell, and 
Epstein were all at that summer camp that summer?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"If you could turn to the next slide, please. 
Have you obtained records from Interlochen for the summer of 
1994?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And what are we looking at on this slide?" 
A. 
"This shows who -- some of the individuals that 
were there, were present for that camp in '94. On here is 
Q. 
If 
"And have you investigated whether Maxwell and 
Epstein were also at Interlochen that summer of 1994 as 
described?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Based on your review of records from Interlochen, 
what is your understanding of Epstein's relationship with 
Interlochen?" 
A. 
"My understanding was that he was a donor to the 
school." 
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Q. 
"Did he make any substantial donations?" 
A. 
"He did." 
Q. 
"Did he donate a lodge to the camp in the summer 
of 1994?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"Did he have a long-standing relationship as a 
donor to Interlochen?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Is this an excerpt of 
a letter from Interlochen to Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes, it is." 
Q. 
"And does this letter thank Epstein for donating a 
scholarship lodge?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Does it invite Epstein to visit in August of 
1994?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"In 1994 did Epstein have a private jet?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"Have you obtained the flight logs for that -iet?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Do those logs include passenger lists and the 
airport code for the airports the plane flew into and out 
of?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Is this a page of the 
flight logs that you reviewed?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And on this excerpt of the flight logs, where the 
red arrow is, is that a log entry showing an August 18, 1994 
flight to an airport with the airport code TBC?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is TBC the airport code for Cherry Capitol 
Airport in Traverse City, Michigan?" 
A. 
"Yes, it is." 
Q. 
"About how far is that airport from Interlochen by 
car?" 
A. 
"About 25 minutes, give or take." 
Q. 
"And who were the listed passengers on this 
flight?" 
A. 
"Jeffrey Epstein, 
(ph), and 
(ph)." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Is it the same 
excerpt just with a different arrow?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Okay. So a few lines down is there a flight out 
of Traverse City just two days later, on August 20, 1994?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And do the passengers listed in the flight out of 
Traverse City include the initials GM?" 
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A. 
"Yes, they do." 
Q. 
"Are those Ghislaine Maxwell's initials?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Have you obtained any records from Interlochen to 
indicate that Maxwell was at Interlochen in 1994?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"If we could turn to the next slide. Can you 
please explain for the grand jury what we're looking at on 
this slide?" 
A. 
"This was a letter from Interlochen 
explaining -- addressed to Maxwell -- telling her that they 
had found an envelope in the lodge that they had been 
staying." 
Q. 
"All right. We were talking a few minutes ago 
about how 
described meeting Maxwell and Epstein at 
summer camp and you testified that she provided them with 
her phone number. Did 
explain to you whether or not 
she had any contact with Epstein or Maxwell after she 
returned home to Palm Beach?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"When was the next time that happened?" 
A. 
"Shortly thereafter." 
Q. 
"And how did that occur?" 
A. 
"She was invited to his house, so her and her 
mother went to Epstein's house to visit." 
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Q. 
"What did 
tell you about that visit to 
Epstein's house with her mother?" 
A. 
"She said it was -- wait, can you rephrase that?" 
Q. 
"Of course. Did 
go to the house by 
herself or with her mother?" 
A. 
"With her mother." 
Q. 
"Okay. When they went to the house what did they 
do there?" 
A. 
"They had tea." 
Q. 
"Who was there when they had tea at the house?" 
A. 
"Epstein and Maxwell." 
Q. 
"What did they discuss as they had tea?" 
A. 
"They just talked about her life and, you know, 
what she wanted to do." 
Q. 
"Did Epstein make any offers?" 
A. 
"He said that he gives scholarships; he likes to 
mentor people." 
Q. 
"How did 
's mother react when Epstein said 
this?" 
A. 
"She was happy for her daughter and often times 
referred to Epstein as 
's godfather." 
Q. 
"After that occasion when they went over to the 
house, thereafter, did 
subsequently begin regularly 
spending time with Maxwell and Epstein at Epstein's house in 
Palm Beach?" 
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14?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
A. 
4• 
"Did that start when she was approximately age 
"Yes." 
"Did it continue until she was about age 17?" 
A. 
"Yes, it did." 
Q. 
"And during those years does she regularly go over 
to Epstein's house in Palm Beach and spend time with Maxwell 
and Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What happened in the summer of 1997 when 
was 17, about to turn 18?" 
A. 
"She moved to New York City." 
Q. 
"Why did she move to New York City?" 
A. 
"She wanted to pursue a career in acting and 
modeling." 
Q. 
"We'll talk about that in a moment, but for now, I 
want to focus on the years you talked about, in Palm Beach, 
from the ages 14 to 17, when 
would regularly go to 
Epstein's house. In the beginning, in the first few months 
when she went there, what kinds of things did she do when 
she would visit the house when Maxwell and Epstein were 
there?" 
A. 
"They'd hang out by the pool. He -- they would 
take her to the movies, take her shopping. She described 
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that behavior as grooming." 
Q. 
"When you say grooming, did she explain what she 
meant by that?" 
A. 
"She meant that they were building a relationship 
with her, giving her things, taking her places, and then 
usually when the grooming happens, an offender will -- once 
they gain that trust -- they will make their relationship 
turn sexual." 
Q. 
"Now you testified just a moment ago that 
described to you that she felt at this time period they were 
grooming her, is that right?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is that something that she realized at the time 
when she was 14, or is that something she's described to you 
now?" 
A. 
"Something she's described now. She didn't 
realize that at the time." 
Q. 
"So we'll talk a little bit more about grooming in 
a moment, but just to give context, are you familiar with 
the term grooming based on your experience investigating 
crimes involving sexual exploitation of minors?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Generally speaking, you were touching on this a 
moment ago, but if you could just explain it in full, what 
is grooming?" 
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A. 
"Grooming is when someone builds a relationship 
with a child. They will find a vulnerability or a need and 
then they work on gaining that child's trust. And then 
often times gaining a parent's trust. Once they have that 
trust, they show that in ways that they can care about them; 
like giving them gifts and promises. And then once that's 
established, they then turn the relationship sexual; often 
times, making sexual comments and normalizing the behavior." 
Q. 
"Now during these visits that you've been 
describing, that 
told you about, did 
say whether 
Epstein ever gave her anything?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"What did he give her?" 
A. 
"He gave her cash. Sometimes he'd tell her to 
give the cash to her mom because he knew that they needed 
it. He paid for her voice lessons as well." 
Q. 
"Now you were describing how 
has 
characterized these visits now, but based on your 
conversations with her, at the time did she feel that these 
visits were strange at all?" 
A. 
"She thought they were strange, but Maxwell 
normalized it for her. She was like a cool, older sister 
and made comments like, this is what grownups do." 
Q. 
"You used the phrase cool, older sister. Is that 
a phrase that 
used to describe how she felt about 
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Maxwell at the time, and what Maxwell was like?" 
A. 
"Yes. Those are her words." 
Q. 
"Did there come a time -- these visits --
saw Maxwell topless by the pool?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did she tell you about that?" 
A. 
"She was a little taken back, but Maxwell just 
acted normal." 
Q. 
"Did 
tell you about an incident several 
months into this arrangement when she was alone with Epstein 
in the pool house?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And when they were alone together, did Epstein 
ask 
what she wanted to do with her life?" 
A. 
"He did." 
Q. 
"What did she say?" 
A. 
"She said she wanted to be an actress and n 
model." 
Q. 
"How did Epstein respond?" 
A. 
"He told her that he was best friends with the 
owner of Victoria's Secret. Told her that she would have to 
have photographs taken and that she had to be comfortable in 
her underwear and not be a prude. When she was asked what 
she meant by that, he pulled her into his lap and 
masturbated." 
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1 
Q• 
"What was her reaction?" 
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A. 
"She felt paralyzed. She froze." 
Q. 
"After this incident did 
's encounters with 
Epstein begin to include sexual contact?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Over time did the sexual abuse escalate?" 
A. 
"It did." 
Q. 
"From what she's described to you, did the abuse 
include Epstein digitally penetrating 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did it include Epstein using a vibrator on her?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she describe to you that there were times 
when Epstein would direct 
to massage him while he 
masturbated?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did 
explain to you what her memories are 
like of the abuse?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did she say about that?" 
A. 
"She said that it happened so often that it al 
kind 
it all runs together for her. That it's hard to 
separate out some of the different instances of abuse." 
Q. 
"You were describing how 
explained to you 
that the abuse began. Did that occur, based on what 
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told you, within the first year that she met Epstein and 
Maxwell?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Now did 
also describe to you that once this 
abuse started Epstein would also bring her into his massage 
room in his house?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And were there times, where he did this, where 
there were other women present, including Maxwell?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Was 
abused during those episodes?" 
A. 
"Yes, she was." 
Q. 
"During these group encounters what were 
and 
the adult women wearing?" 
A. 
"They were usually just in their underwear." 
Q. 
"Once they were all in the massage room, how would 
these episodes generally start?" 
A. 
"They would generally start with one of the girls 
massaging Epstein. 
was usually massaging his feet. 
Maxwell was kind of teasing the other girls. She'd grab the 
girl's breasts, and she would direct the girls on what to 
do." 
Q. 
"When these episodes would start, in general, was 
Epstein generally lying face down on the massage table?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q. 
"What would happen as things progressed, generally 
speaking, from what she described to you?" 
A. 
"When Epstein would decide he was kind of done 
with the regular massage, he would turn over on his back, 
and he'd grab whichever girl he wanted to, either, touch him 
or whatever girl he wanted to touch." 
Q. 
"Did these episodes include sex acts that over 
time, in various instances, included Epstein masturbating, 
Epstein receiving oral sex, and Epstein engaging in 
intercourse?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"You were describing for a moment what 
tos, 
you about Maxwell's role during these group encounters. 
Would Maxwell sometimes guide the women and give 
instructions about what to do?" 
A. 
"Yes, she would." 
Q. 
"What would 
typically do during these 
episodes?" 
A. 
"She would try not to look at Maxwell because she 
gave off that sister-vibe, so it felt weird for her. She 
would try to be invisible in the room so they would ignore 
her as much as possible." 
Q. 
"In the beginning, when 
's approximately 16 
or 15, would she generally begin by just massaging Epstein's 
feet?" 
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A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is that something she was told to do?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she -- you mentioned that she tried to be 
invisible -- was -- I believe that was your testimony?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And over time has she described to you that over 
time she believed she became more involved in the sexual 
activity which varied in each encounter?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Were there times 
let me rephrase that. How 
did -- you touched on this for a moment, but just to be 
clear -- how did 
describe Maxwell's attitude during 
these incidents?" 
A. 
"It was very casual; she acted like this was 
normal. She gave off that vibe to her and yeah." 
Q. 
"Did that make her feel more comfortable with what 
was happening?" 
A. 
"It did." 
Q. 
"Was 
sometimes fully nude during these 
episodes?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And during these episodes did the abuse include 
Epstein touching 
's breasts?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q. 
"Did it include directing 
to touch Epstein's 
genitals?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Beginning when 
's approximately 14, does 
she begin to travel with Epstein and Maxwell to 
New York City on occasion?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Was that to the property you testified about 
earlier; the townhouse on the upper-east side?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"When 
traveled to New York City, did she 
stay in Epstein's townhouse in New York City? 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Did she recall that Maxwell and Epstein took her 
shopping on one of her early trips to New York City?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she remember them buying her anything?" 
A. 
"She recalled them buying her white cotton 
underwear. Her description was that they were like little 
girl's underwear." 
Q. 
"From ages 14 to 17 did Epstein ask 
to 
periodically fly to New York for weekends at that townhouse 
in New York?" 
A. 
"I'm sorry, say it again?" 
Q. 
"You testified that she began travelling to 
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New York City at age 14. Did she then periodically travel 
to New York City, in a similar manner, from ages 14 to 17?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Were there times, when she travelled on those 
trips, when she flew on Epstein's private jet?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she also sometimes fly commercially?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Was Maxwell sometimes present on the trips to New 
York?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"You testified earlier that 
was sexually 
abused in Palm Beach. Did she describe to you that she was 
also sexually abused on these trips to New York?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Did Maxwell encourage 
to go on these 
trips?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What does 
-- what did 
tell you about 
her memory of how these trips were arranged?" 
A. 
"She recalled that Maxwell was usually the one 
that would schedule her flights. If she was flying 
commercially she would schedule the flights, sometimes 
calling her mother to schedule." 
Q. 
"Was that the general impression of how they were 
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arranged?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"In addition to the trips to New York City you 
just described, did 
also remember travelling, at least 
once, to Epstein's ranch in New Mexico?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Does she remember whether or not she was sexually 
abused in New Mexico?" 
A. 
"She couldn't recall. She couldn't remember." 
Q. 
"In general, how would 
get to the airport in 
Florida when she would fly on Epstein's jet; what did she 
describe to you?" 
A. 
"Usually a driver; one of Epstein's drivers would 
pick her up from her house and take her to the airport." 
Q. 
"Now you testified earlier that you reviewed 
flight records for Epstein's private jet, is that correct?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And have you reviewed records from the 1990s to 
see if there -- whether there's a person named 
listed 
on the records?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Is this an excerpt 
from those records?" 
A. 
"Yes, it is." 
Q. 
"And does the red arrow point to 
does the red 
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arrow point to a November 11th, 1996 flight?" 
A. 
"Yes, it does." 
Q. 
"And does this say -- does this flight log reflect 
that it was a flight from Palm Beach, Florida to Teterboro, 
New Jersey?" 
A. 
Q. 
"Yes." 
"Is there a private airfield in Teterboro, 
New Jersey?" 
A. 
"Yes, there is." 
Q. 
"What's it called?" 
A. 
"Teterboro Airport." 
■ 
Q. 
"Are the passengers listed on this entry JE?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Are the -- do the entries also include 
(ph) plus friend, Jeff Shamf's (ph), family, 
(ph), 
(ph), 
(ph), and 
?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Was 
, based on your awareness of 
's 
date of birth and the date of this flight, was 
on 
the date of this flight?" 
A. 
"Yes, she was." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. You testified earlier 
about Teterboro Airport. What are we looking at on this 
slide?" 
A. 
"This is directions from Teterboro Airport to 
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Epstein's residence here in Manhattan." 
Q. 
"So based on your review of this map, if someone 
were to fly into Teterboro and travel to New York City, 
would they -- would the most natural route be to travel to 
Teterboro Airport and crossing into New York through 
Manhattan?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Is this also an 
excerpt from the flight records that you've reviewed?" 
A. 
"Yes, it is." 
Q. 
"And does this show a May 9, 1997 flight from 
Teterboro, New Jersey to Santa Fe, New Mexico?" 
A. 
"Yes, it does." 
Q. 
"And are the passengers listed on this log JE, GM, 
and 
? II 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Based on your knowledge of 
's birthdate and 
the date of this flight, would 
have been 16 on the 
date of this flight?" 
A. 
"Yes, she would have been." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next flight -- slide. Is this 
also an excerpt from the flight records?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And does the red arrow point to a flight entry on 
May 3, 1998?" 
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A. 
"Yes, it does." 
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Q. 
"Based on the airport codes, did this reflect that 
there is a flight on that date from Palm Beach, Florida to 
Teterboro, New Jersey?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And are the passengers listed on this log JE, GM, 
ET, 
(ph), 
, Glenn (ph), 
A. 
"Yes." 
(ph) ?" 
(ph), 
(ph), Manny 
Q. 
"Based on your knowledge of 
's birthday and 
the date of this flight, would 
date?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
have been 17 on this 
"Am I correct that you testified earlier that in 
addition to sometimes flying on Epstein's private jet, she 
also travelled on commercial airlines, is that right?" 
A. 
"Yes, it is." 
Q. 
"Based on your review of these flight logs, does 
every flight entry list the name of every single passenger; 
or are there sometime when a passenger is noted female?" 
A. 
"There's times where a passenger is just noted 
female." 
Q. 
"I'm going to walk -- talk to you about two 
examples of that. Turning ahead two slides. Looking at 
Slide 18, does this reflect a January 3rd, 1995 flight where 
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the flight log says JE, two females?" 
A. 
"Yes, it does." 
Q. 
"And do the two entries below, also, just list 
female next to the initials JE?" 
A. 
"Yes, they do." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide, Slide 19. Is this 
another example of an entry like that; focusing on the entry 
on February 12, 1995?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Does that entry also say, female?" 
A. 
"Yes, it does." 
Q. 
"Now, you testified that 
sometimes flew on 
commercial airlines and that arrangements for her travel 
were made for her to fly commercially for these trips, is 
that right?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Have you been able to obtain commercial flight 
records?" 
A. 
"We tried. We were not able to obtain those 
records." 
Q. 
"Why is that?" 
A. 
"Airlines do not keep records past a certain 
year." 
Q. 
"Does 
recall group sexualized massages 
involving Epstein and Maxwell, in both the New York and 
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Florida residences, during the time period we've been 
talking about?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"You testified earlier about the time that Epstein 
and Maxwell would spend together and the activities that 
they were involved in. During this time period did 
have occasions to talk with Maxwell?" 
A. 
"She -- I'm sorry, can you ask the question 
again?" 
Q. 
"During the beginning when she was 14, when she 
began spending time with Epstein and Maxwell, and through 
the years, did 
often have conversations with Maxwell 
about her life?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did they talk about that often?" 
A. 
"They did." 
Q. 
"Did Maxwell ask 
about her family, her 
classes, and other aspects of her life?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"You testified earlier, just before she turned 18, 
moved to New York City, is that right?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she go to school there in New York City her 
senior year?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
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Q. 
"What school did she go to?" 
A. 
"She went to the 
Q. 
"What is the 
A. 
"They cater to individuals who want to pursue 
careers in the arts." 
Q. 
"Have you reviewed records from the 
VI 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"If you could turn to Slide 17. Can you please 
explain for the grand jury what we're looking at here?" 
A. 
"This is an excerpt from 
's application to 
the 
On it is listed, who is 
financially responsible for her, and that is 
Jeffrey Epstein." 
Q. 
"From what 
told you did Maxwell encourage 
to accept Epstein's financial help?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"When 
moved to New York City who was she 
living with?" 
A. 
"She lived with her mother and her brother 
in -- 
apartment." 
Q. 
"Did Epstein help pay for her rent?" 
A. 
"He did." 
Q. 
"During that year, her senior year of high school, 
when she was in New York City, did 
remain in contact 
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with Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q• 
"What was the nature of their contact like during 
that time period?" 
her." 
A. 
"During this time he was still sexually abusing 
Q. 
"Did that continue to occur at his townhouse in 
Manhattan that year?" 
A. 
"Yes, it did." 
Q. 
"What happened at the end of her senior year of 
high school?" 
A. 
"She moved to Los Angeles to pursue a career in 
acting." 
Q. 
"Did she get a job as an actress when she turned 
18?" 
A. 
"She did." 
Q. 
"Has 
lived in Los Angeles and worked as an 
actress on television ever since then?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"After she moved to Los Angeles, did she continue 
being in touch with Epstein?" 
A. 
"For a short period of time." 
Q. 
"Did she ultimately break contact with him?' 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Is 
currently pursuing a civil lawsuit 
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against Maxwell and Epstein's estate?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Have you talked with 
about whether, when 
she was a teenage girl and all of this was happening, 
whether she told anyone that she was being sexually abused?" 
A. 
"Yes. She said she didn't tell anyone. She felt 
like she couldn't. She -- the -- nothing was talked about 
outside of that room, so it made it so that she couldn't 
talk about it. And then she also -- her mother is Middle 
Eastern, and her mother raised her that women are supposed 
to do what they're told even if someone is beating you. 
When she was 13 and her father passed, she, she 
went to a guidance counselor at school to talk about it, and 
her mother found out about it and smacked her. She felt 
like she couldn't talk to anyone about it." 
Q. 
"Did 
's mother encourage her to accept 
Epstein's financial assistance?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Have you become aware that in 2005 police 
officers from the Palm Beach Police Department executed 
search warrant at Epstein's house at the 
El Brillo Way address in Palm Beach?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Have you reviewed some of the materials seized 
during the search?" 
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A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did they find massage tables and sex toys?" 
A. 
"Yes, they did." 
Q. 
"Did they find any photographs of 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Was one of the photographs signed by 
A. 
"Yes, it was." 
Q. 
"Did it say, 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"During your interviews with 
, did 
tell 
you how she felt about Epstein and Maxwell in the 90s when 
she was a young girl?" 
A. 
"She did. She expressed that she felt like they 
loved her. She felt they were her family; that they 
supported her, and that they felt like -- she was made to 
feel that she was needed to be grateful to them." 
Q. 
"Okay. Did she tell you that she felt like they 
were trying to help her?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Have you talked with 
about how she feels 
about this now?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What was 
's demeanor like when she described 
to you what Epstein and Maxwell had done to her?" 
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A. 
"She was upset. She recognized that now. It's 
affected her life to a great degree. She's struggled in 
relationships with opening up to people and trusting people; 
both personal and professional relationships." 
Q. 
"Did she tell you that she struggled to tell 
anyone what had happened to her for most of her adulthood?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"When was the first time you interviewed 
A. 
"Last fall." 
Q. 
"Was that the first time she ever reported this to 
law enforcement?" 
A. 
"Yes, it was." 
Q. 
"Now you testified earlier about your interviews 
with 
who worked at Epstein's Palm Beach house. 
Did he remember a girl named 
coming to the house 
during that time?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"Did he recall 
, Maxwell, and Epstein meeting 
in the Palm Beach house together?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What was his understanding of why 
there?" 
A. 
"He thought that Epstein was helping her. That's 
what Epstein had told him, and 
had told him that 
Epstein was helping her." 
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Q. 
"Did he ever observe Epstein interacting with 
physically?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did he see?" 
A. 
"He saw Epstein kiss 
's cheek and pat her on 
the bottom." 
Q. 
"Did he have any knowledge about what was 
happening with Epstein or Maxwell when he wasn't present?" 
A. 
"He didn't." 
Q. 
"Did 
ever recall picking up 
from her 
house?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And when he would pick her up from her house, 
would he then bring her back to the Palm Beach house?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did he remember who, in general, would tell him 
to pick up 
from her house?" 
A. 
"Maxwell would be the one to tell him to pick her 
up." 
Q. 
"Did he recall ever driving 
to the movies?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did he tell you about that?" 
A. 
"That would usually be Epstein, Maxwell, and 
; they would go to the movies, and it would usually be 
late at night." 
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Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
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Q. 
"Did he tell you about what his memory was about 
how old 
was?" 
A. 
"He said she was young, and that he knew that 
because he had picked her up from school, and that he knew 
she was too young to drive." 
Q. 
"Switching gears. I want to talk to you about a 
different aspect of your interviews with 
Based 
on what he told about his job duties, were there ever times 
where he would have to clean Epstein's massage room?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did he tell you about that?" 
A. 
"He said that he found sex toys in the massage 
room, and he had to wash them afterwards." 
Q. 
"Aside from those experiences, was he aware it 
there were any sex toys in the house?" 
A. 
"Yes. There was a basket of sex toys that were 
kept in Maxwell's closet." 
Q. 
"Did 
stop working for Epstein in 
approximately 2002?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Was he told that he was being replaced?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And was he generally aware that the person who 
replaced him was much younger?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q. 
"Did 
tell you that a few months after he 
left working for Epstein he became suicidal because of 
issues in his marriage?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did he tell you that he went to Epstein's house 
and tried to take Epstein's gun?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"Did he tell you that it's worth several thousand 
dollars?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did Epstein discover this and confront him about 
it?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"Did 
admit to Epstein and the police what 
he had done?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did Epstein also tell the police his gun was 
missing?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Were there any charges filed?" 
A. 
"No." 
Q. 
"Was he ever arrested?" 
A. 
"I don't believe so." 
Q. 
incident?" 
"And did Epstein pursue any charges about this 
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4? 
A. 
"No. He didn't pursue anything." 
Q. 
"Have you interviewed one of Epstein's former 
pilots?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is that pilot named David Rodgers?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Was he one of the pilots for Epstein's private 
jet in the 1990s?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did he remember 
travelling on the 
jet in the 90s?" 
A. 
"He remembered her travelling, but he didn't 
remember specifics." 
Q. 
"So just to be clear, is your testimony that he 
didn't remember the specific dates of the flights, but he 
remembered her travelling on the jet during the 1990s?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And did he remember 
specifically as 
a person who travelled?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did you discuss with him the flight records that 
we talked about earlier that lists a person named 
as a 
passenger?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did he have a specific memory of those exact 
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flights?" 
A. 
"No." 
Q. 
"But was he aware of any other 
flying on the 
jet, besides 
, in the 1990s?" 
A. 
"No. No other 
at the time." 
Q. 
"Earlier, when we were looking at Interlochen 
attendance records for the summer of 1994, you noted that 
was one of the names on that record, is that 
right?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is that 
?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Have you interviewed 
?" 
A. 
"Yes, I have." 
Q. 
"Did he tell you that he remembered 
talking 
that summer at camp about having met Jeffrey Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did he tell you that he remembered 
going 
over to Epstein's house in Palm Beach when they were in high 
school?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did he remember that 
would often talk about 
spending time with Maxwell and Epstein during this time?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did he remember 
telling him they -- when 
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they were in high school -- about at least one trip to 
New York City that she took with Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did he remember 
describing Epstein's 
townhouse in Manhattan?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And does he remember 
talking often about 
Ghislaine Maxwell?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Now based on your interviews with ■,
did he 
tell you whether he knew back then, when they were in high 
school, whether 
was being sexually abused by Epstein?" 
A. 
"He didn't know back then." 
Q. 
"Did ■ 
ever meet Ghislaine Maxwell?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"What did he remember about that?" 
A. 
"He remembered Epstein, Maxwell, and 
being 
near a movie theatre, and he was approximately 16 at the 
time and 
would have been 15, and just the little bit 
of interaction they had. And then after that, 
had 
told him that Maxwell had said something to the effect of, I 
could teach 
a thing or two." 
Q. 
"Is that something that he remembers 
telling 
him back then, that Maxwell said?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q• 
"During the course of this investigation have you 
participated in any interviews with an individual named 
?II 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"So for today's purposes, I'm just going to refer 
to her as 
. How many times have you referred to 
(verbatim) 
?" 
A. 
"Approximately, twice." 
MS. 
Excuse me. 
BY MS. 
Q. 
"How many times have you interviewed 
A. 
"Approximately twice." 
Q. 
"Now does 
know 
? Have they 
ever met before as far as you know?" 
A. 
"As far as I know, no." 
Q. 
? 11 
"Turning to the next slide. Are these photographs 
of 
when she was in high school?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And is her date of birth 
?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"When 
was approximately 16 and a junior in 
high school where was she living?" 
A. 
"She was living in 
with her mother." 
Q. 
"Does she have any siblings?" 
A. 
"An older sister." 
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Q. 
"What did her older sister do?" 
A. 
"Her older sister lived -- worked for Epstein." 
Q. 
"Where did she work for Epstein?" 
A. 
"Here in New York." 
Q. 
"Did there come a time, in approximately December 
1995, when 
had a phone conversation with her sister 
about travelling to New York City?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did they discuss?" 
A. 
"They discussed her coming to New York and meeting 
Epstein." 
Q. 
"What did her sister tell 
about why she 
should meet Epstein?" 
A. 
"She said that he could help her with her 
college." 
Q. 
"And did she say -- does the sister say whether 
the sister wanted her to meet Epstein, or did she say 
whether Epstein wanted to meet 
A. 
"Epstein wanted to meet 
Q. 
"Now let me just pause here. You testified that 
this happened in approximately December of 1995. Just for 
context, the years that we were talking about with 
, was that 1994 through 1997?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"So is this approximately the same time period 
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while what you described 
telling you happened?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"So in January of 1996 did 
fly on a 
commercial airline to New York City to spend a weekend with 
her sister and meet Jeffrey Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she tell you that?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"During the trip did 
tell you that she met 
Epstein at his townhouse in New York City?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Did she tell you that Epstein discussed her plans 
for college applications and offered to help her?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What was 
• s first impression of Jeffrey 
Epstein?" 
A. 
"She was very impressed by him." 
Q. 
"What did she -- what was her impression, based on 
this conversation, of what Epstein was going to do for her?" 
A. 
"That he was going to help her with her future 
plans for college." 
Q. 
"During that trip to New York City did she stay at 
Epstein's townhouse or at her sister's apartment?" 
A. 
"Her sister's apartment." 
Q. 
"During that trip did she tell you that she saw 
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Epstein a second time when he took 
and her sister to 
the movies?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did she tell you happened at the movies?" 
A. 
"She said that they were sitting in the theatre 
and Epstein was between 
and her sister, and Epstein 
put his hand on her leg; he rubbed her arm and held her 
hands -- held hands with her." 
Q. 
"From what she told you, what was her impression 
about whether her sister could see what was going on?" 
A. 
"She felt like her sister couldn't see." 
Q. 
"What was her reaction to this happening?" 
A. 
"She was uncomfortable." 
Q. 
"After the movie did she tell her sister what hac 
happened?" 
A. 
"No, she didn't." 
Q. 
"Did she say why not?" 
A. 
"She said that she knew 
, her sister, really 
liked Epstein and that Epstein could help them. So she 
didn't tell her." 
Q. 
"After this trip did 
go back home to 
7" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did Epstein contact her afterwards?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q. 
"Did he discuss with her, her ongoing college 
plans?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"Did he invite her to a weekend at his ranch in 
New Mexico in the spring of 1996?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Was she 16 at the time?" 
A. 
"Yes, she was." 
Q. 
"From what she told you, what was 
impression of who would be on this trip to New Mexico?" 
A. 
"She knew Maxwell would be there." 
Q. 
"Did she -- was she told anyone else was going to 
be present during this trip?" 
A. 
"She said that there would be like other students 
her -- kids her age." 
Q. 
"And what was her understanding of who these other 
kids were and why they would be there? Sorry, let me --" 
A. 
"Rephrase." 
Q. 
"Rephrase that question. You testified that she 
was told that on this trip that there would be other 
students. Was she under the impression that there would be 
other students like her on the trip who were also being 
mentored by Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Now you testified just a moment ago that she was 
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also told that Maxwell would be there. Are you referring to 
Ghislaine Maxwell?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"At the point that she was told that 
Ghislaine Maxwell would be on this trip, had she ever met 
Ghislaine Maxwell?" 
A. 
"No, she hadn't." 
Q. 
"Had she heard her sister talk about 
Ghislaine Maxwell?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"How did -- from what she described to you -- how 
did her expectation that Maxwell would be on this trip make 
her feel about the trip?" 
A. 
"It made her comfortable. Her sister had talked 
highly of Maxwell." 
Q. 
"Did 
tell you that she flew to New Mexico 
that spring when she was 16?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she meet Ghislaine Maxwell when she arrived 
in New Mexico?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"How did she describe Maxwell's demeanor and 
attitude when she met her?" 
A. 
"She described Maxwell as being very charming. 
She gave her a tour of the house, and Maxwell took 
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shopping which made her feel special." 
Q. 
"What does she remember talking about with 
Ghislaine Maxwell?" 
A. 
"They talked about school, homework, trips." 
Q. 
"Did she talk with her about applying to college?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she talk about her classes in high school?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she talk with her about the homework that she 
had to do that weekend?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she talk with Maxwell about her family?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she talk with her about her home life and 
living with her mother?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"From what 
told you, when she got there, who 
else was at the ranch besides Ghislaine Maxwell and 
Jeffrey Epstein?" 
A. 
"It was just them." 
Q. 
"Was it just the three of them there the entire 
weekend of the visit?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Were there any other school kids there?" 
A. 
"No." 
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Q. 
"When they were at the ranch, from what 
to_ 
you, did Maxwell say anything to 
about massages?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she say anything about -- to her about foot 
massages?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did 
tell you about that?" 
A. 
"Maxwell told 
to give Epstein a foot massage 
and then showed her and instructed her on how to do it. 
was a little uncomfortable, but Maxwell was joking 
around so she just followed her lead." 
Q. 
"Did 
tell you what Maxwell and 
Epstein -- took her to the movies that weekend?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did she tell you about that trip to the 
movies?" 
A. 
"She said that when they went outside the theatre 
Maxwell was joking around and pulled Epstein's pants down a 
little bit. And then once they went inside the theatre, 
Epstein, when they were sitting down, touched 
's leg, 
and rubbed her arm, held her hand. And that this time 
he -- 
felt -- he wasn't trying to hide it from 
Maxwell. 
Q. 
"What was 
' s reaction to all of this?" 
A. 
"She was uncomfortable." 
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Q. 
"During the same weekend was there another 
occasion when Maxwell talked about massages?" 
A. 
Q. 
"Yes." 
"What happened?" 
A. 
"Maxwell had asked 
if she had ever had a 
massage, and Maxwell told her she could give her one. 
was on her back, and Maxwell pulled the sheet down 
exposing her chest; she was nude from the top up and 
proceeded to massage around her chest and breast area." 
Q. 
"From what 
told you when she was describing 
to you what you just described to the grand jury, how did 
she feel while this was happening?" 
A. 
"She felt really uncomfortable." 
Q. 
"Did 
also tell you about an incident that 
happened one morning when she was in New Mexico?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
4. 
"What did she tell you happened?" 
A. 
"She said that she was in bed, and Epstein came 
into the room and told her that he wanted to cuddle. So he 
laid down next to her and spooned her. She told him that 
she had to go to the bathroom to get out of the situation." 
Q. 
"What was her reaction to that, when Epstein got 
into her bed?" 
do." 
A. 
"She felt uncomfortable. She didn't know what to 
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Q. 
"Did 
go back home to 
when the 
weekend was over?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Did she tell anyone, when she got home, about 
what had happened?" 
A. 
"No." 
Q. 
"Is that for the same reason you described 
earlier?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did Epstein end up paying for 
to go on 
trip to Thailand that summer?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did 
have any contact with Maxwell or 
Epstein after that trip?" 
A. 
"Not that she recalled." 
Q. 
"When you interviewed 
, what was her demeanor 
like when she described her interactions with 
Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell?" 
A. 
"She became upset and emotional." 
Q. 
"Is 
currently pursuing a civil lawsuit 
against Maxwell and Epstein's estate?" 
A. 
"Yes, she is." 
Q. 
"What does 
do for a living now?" 
A. 
"She's a psychologist who works with trauma 
victims." 
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1 
Q. 
"During the course of this investigation have you 
2 
interviewed someone named 
3 
A. 
"Yes." 
4 
Q. 
"For today's purposes I'm just going to refer to 
5 
her as 
. How many times have you interviewed 
6 
, approximately?" 
7 
A. 
"Approximately three times." 
8 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Is this a photograph 
9 
of 
that she provided to you?" 
10 
A. 
"Yes." 
11 
Q. 
"And did she tell you that this was taken when she 
12 
was in -- approximately 16 or 17 years old?" 
13 
A. 
"Yes." 
14 
Q. 
"Is 
's date of birth 
15 
A. 
"Yes." 
16 
Q. 
"Did 
grow up in England?" 
17 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
18 
Q. 
"Did she tell you that there came a point where 
19 
she met Ghislaine Maxwell when she was about 17?" 
20 
A. 
"Yes." 
21 
Q. 
"How did she tell you that they met?" 
22 
A. 
"She said they met through a mutual friena." 
23 
Q. 
"Did she tell you that this would have happened in 
24 
around 1994 or 1995?" 
25 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q. 
"And is that within the same time period that 
we've been talking about today?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What happened after she was introduced to 
Ghislaine Maxwell, from what she told you?" 
A. 
"She said Maxwell treated her like they were 
sisters. Her quote was 'like naughty school girls' is how 
Maxwell treated with her." 
Q. 
"Did she tell you that Maxwell seemed to 
immediately take an interest in her?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she tell you that they began spending time 
together in London?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And just to be clear was Maxwell in her thirties 
while this is happening?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did Maxwell -- did 
ever remember Maxwell 
ever talking about having a boyfriend named 
Jeffrey Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"What did she tell 
about that?" 
A. 
"Maxwell told 
that Epstein was going to 
like her." 
Q. 
"Did there come a time when she was 17 that 
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described that Maxwell introduced her to 
Jeffrey Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"How did she describe that occurring?" 
A. 
"Epstein had flown into London. He was at 
Maxwell's residence in London, and Maxwell had called 
over. So 
went over, and when she got there 
Maxwell was saying to Epstein, kind of -- the words 
used was -- giving him a resume of her attributes, saying, 
she's so pretty, she's so strong; and then Maxwell asked hel 
to give Epstein a massage." 
Q. 
"Now you've testified just a moment ago that 
Maxwell -- that 
described to you that Maxwell asked 
her to give Epstein a massage during this first meeting, is 
that correct?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did Maxwell state to her, in sum and substance, 
since you're so strong, I'd appreciate it if you'd give 
Jeffrey a massage because he needs a massage every day or I 
get in trouble?" 
A. 
"Yes, she said that." 
Q. 
"Is that what 
said to you, in sum and 
substance?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"When that happened did 
remember Maxwell 
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leading her to a room in the house?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"When 
what happened?" 
A. 
"When 
went in the room -- oh excuse m( 
went in the room Epstein was in 
robe. He took off his robe, and she started massaging him. 
And then he touched 
and pulled her hand to his 
penis." 
Q. 
"What does 
did this?" 
A. 
"Don't be frigid." 
Q. 
"What was her reaction to this happening, from 
what she told you?" 
A. 
"She was taken back by it." 
Q. 
"When this episode ended and 
left the 
remember Epstein saying when he 
room, did she tell that she remembered Maxwell being just 
outside the room when she left?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she remember Maxwell saying to her, did you 
have fun? Did he like it?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Does she remember Maxwell calling her several 
Jays afterwards, or at some short period of time 
afterwards?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
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Q. 
"Did 
remember Maxwell saying to her on the 
phone call, in sum and substance, well, aren't you a clever 
girl, Jeffrey was very impressed?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Shortly after this incident does she remember 
Maxwell asking her to come back over to the house?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And when she got there did she tell you she 
remembered Maxwell saying to her, in substance, thank God 
you're here, if it's not you or someone else it falls to 
me?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Does she remember Maxwell bringing her up the 
stairs to the house on that occasion?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"What does she remember happening when Maxwell 
opened the door to the room?" 
A. 
"Epstein was standing there nude." 
Q. 
"Does she remember Maxwell then saying, I'll leave 
you guys to it?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"After these first two encounters, did Epstein and 
Maxwell invite 
to travel with them to 
Palm Beach, U.S. Virgin Islands, Paris, and New York, for 
the next several years?" 
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A. 
"Yes, they did." 
Q. 
"Does she remember whether these trips began 
before or after her 18th birthday?" 
A. 
"She couldn't remember specifically." 
Q. 
"Before these trips started, you were describing 
earlier when 
told you about the time she spent with 
Maxwell when they first met, when she was 17, is that right? 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"During these conversations when she would spend 
time with Maxwell, did 
remember talking with her 
about her life, and her family, and her personal 
circumstances, with Maxwell?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Now you testified a moment ago that 
told 
you that at some point she began travelling with Maxwell and 
Epstein, and she wasn't sure whether or not these trips 
started before she turned 18, is that right?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did 
describe to you that Epstein sexually 
abused her during these trips, typically in the context of a 
sexualized massage?" 
A. 
"Yes, he did." 
Q. 
"Did Epstein give her money?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she tell you that he would give her cash?" 
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A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she describe to you that the abuse included, 
among other things, Epstein groping her and using a massager 
device on her genitals?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And was the massager device like a vibrator?" 
A. 
"Yes, it was." 
Q. 
"From what 
told you, was Maxwell in the 
room during these encounters?" 
A. 
"Maxwell wasn't in the room." 
Q. 
"What did she tell you would typically happen when 
left the room after these episodes; was Maxwell 
typically nearby?" 
A. 
"Yes. She was usually right near the room." 
Q. 
"Does she remember Maxwell asking her, after she'd 
leave the room from one of these sessions, how was it; is he 
happy?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did she also tell you that she remembers Maxwell 
telling her at some point, in sum and substance, you know 
how he is when he's not happy, and you know what makes him 
happy; he has to have sex all the time; he's like a super 
hero?" 
A. 
"Yes, she said that." 
Q. 
"Did 
tell you about an incident that 
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occurred, after she turned 18, in Palm Beach when she was 
staying at the Palm Beach house?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did the incident she described to you involve a 
school-girl outfit?" 
A. 
"Yes, it did." 
Q. 
"Could you please describe for the grand jury what 
told you about that incident?" 
A. 
said that Maxwell had shown her a bedroom 
and upon the bed was a school-girl outfit. Maxwell had told 
her -- when 
confronted her about it -- and Maxwell 
said, well, I thought it would be adorable if you gave 
Jeffrey his tea in this; so 
felt like she had to put 
it on. And so she put it on, took Epstein his tea, and 
Epstein then slapped her on the buttocks and reached under 
the skirt and touched her." 
Q. 
"What was her demeanor like when she described 
this incident to you?" 
A. 
"She was crying. She was very upset." 
Q. 
"When 
described seeing the school-girl 
outfit and talking to Maxwell about it, did she remember 
Maxwell telling her, don't be so frigid?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Does she remember that later in the day, after 
she had delivered Epstein his tea and he assaulted her, does 
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she remember Maxwell telling her, I heard you did well?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"During the years that 
was in contact with 
Maxwell and Epstein, did she remember whether Maxwell had 
ever asked her if she knew any other girls who could massage 
Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Does she remember Maxwell saying, in sum and 
substance, do you know anyone who could give him a blowjob 
today, I don't feel like it?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Does she remember Maxwell saying, when she asked 
her to bring other girls, that they have to look young at 
least?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"From your conversations with 
, did she 
tell you whether or not she ever brought any other girls?" 
A. 
'"'I'll didn't bring any girls." 
Q. 
"Did she tell you why not?" 
A. 
"She didn't want anyone else to go through that." 
Q. 
"From your interviews with 
, did she tell 
you that there came a time, when she was in her early 
twenties, when she stopped travelling with Maxwell and 
Epstein?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q. 
"Was she struggling with substance abuse at that 
point?" 
A. 
"Yes, she was." 
Q. 
"Did she tell you that she got sober in her 
twenties?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"What is her current profession?" 
A. 
"She runs a non-profit for people who struggle 
with addiction and trauma." 
Q. 
"Did 
provide you with several emails that 
she exchanged with Epstein in the early 2000s?" 
A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"And were those emails very friendly in tone?" 
A. 
"Yes, they were." 
4• 
"What did she say to you when you talked with her 
about those emails?" 
A. 
"She said she didn't, at the time, want to 
acknowledge what was going on to her. That looking 
back -- on -- it's different." 
Q. 
"Did your squad at the FBI execute a search 
warrant at Jeffrey Epstein's townhouse in Manhattan in July 
of 2019?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Did you personally participate in the search of 
Epstein's residence?" 
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A. 
"Yes, I did." 
Q. 
A. 
"Did the townhouse include a massage room?" 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Have you yourself been in that massage room?" 
A. 
"Yes, I have." 
Q. 
"Could you please describe for the grand jury what 
that massage room looked like?" 
A. 
"It was dark. It had dark draperies covering the 
windows. There was a massage table; there were oils, there 
was a handheld massager in there; along with handcuffs, a 
whip, and along with -- walls were nude photographs of young 
females." 
Q. 
"I believe you testified a moment ago that 
told you that there was a time when Maxwell 
asked her to wear a school-girl outfit for Epstein when they 
were in Palm Beach. Did you find a school-girl outfit in 
Epstein's New York townhouse?" 
A. 
"Yes, we did." 
Q. 
"Where did you find it?" 
A. 
"It was found in a room next to the massage room." 
Q. 
"And to be clear did the FBI find sex toys during 
the search?" 
A. 
Q. 
"Yes." 
"What was found?" 
A. 
"Butt plugs, dildo, and vibrators." 
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Q. 
"We've talked about three minor girls today; 
, is that right?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Have you reviewed the proposed indictment marked 
Grand Jury Exhibit 1?" 
A. 
"Yes, I have." 
Q. 
"Is 
the individual referred to as Victim 1 
in the proposed indictment?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is 
the individual referred to as Victim 2 
in the proposed indictment?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is 
the individual referred to as Victim 3 
in the indictment?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"During all of Maxwell's interactions with the 
victims when they were underage girls, based on the 
timeframe and your knowledge of Maxwell's birthdate, was she 
in her thirties?" 
A. 
"Yes, she was." 
Q. 
"Just one moment. All right. Switching gears. 
Have you become aware that in or about 2016 Maxwell gave 
sworn testimony in a civil deposition in connection with a 
lawsuit?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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Q. 
"Could you please explain for the grand jury, what 
is a deposition?" 
A. 
"It is a statement made under oath." 
Q. 
"And in the course of civil litigation is it 
common for witnesses or parties of the lawsuit to give a 
deposition, under oath, where they testify about the 
substance of the case?" 
A. 
" Yes.
"
Q. 
"And is deposition testimony live, and in-person, 
and under oath?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Is a court reporter present when a deposition 
takes place?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Now before we talk about Maxwell's deposition 
testimony, I want to talk to you about the lawsuit that the 
testimony was about. Have you become aware that in or about 
2015 an individual named 
filed a lawsuit 
against Ghislaine Maxwell here in the Southern District of 
New York?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And was 
suing Maxwell for defamation?" 
A. 
"Yes, she was." 
Q. 
"Was the lawsuit captioned 
against Ghislaine Maxwell, the docket number 15CB 7433, here 
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in the Southern District of New York?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Generally speaking, in broader strokes, what was 
the lawsuit about; what was the claim that 
was 
bringing against Maxwell?" 
WITNESS. 
I'm sorry. What line are we on again? 
MS. 
Page 68, line 4. 
WITNESS. 
had stated that she had been 
sexually abused by Epstein and Maxwell as a minor. Maxwell 
came forward publically and called her a liar, so 
sued her for defamation." 
BY MS. 
Q. 
"So just a small legal instruction on this topic. 
Ladies and gentlemen, I instruct you that the allegations in 
the lawsuit are not being presented to you as evidence that 
those incidents occurred. I instruct you that you should 
not consider those allegations for their truth. Instead, 
the circumstances of the lawsuit are being presented to you 
so that you can consider the context of the case and the 
circumstances under which Maxwell made statements under 
oath. Turning back to the deposition, did Maxwell's 
deposition take place over two different days?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"On both days does she give testimony in 
Manhattan?" 
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A. 
"Yes, she did." 
Q. 
"Is that where the deposition took place?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And on both days was Maxwell sworn under oath?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"If you could flip through the remaining slides of 
the presentation, do those slides contain true and accurate 
excerpts of the transcript of that deposition?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide, is this the cover page 
of the transcript of the first deposition that took place on 
April 22, 2016?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And does it have the case caption on it?" 
A. 
"Yes, it does." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Is this an excerpt 
from the transcript?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"I imagine the grand jurors can't read it from 
their seats so if you could read it with me, I'll read the 
questions, and if you could read the answers." 
"'Did Jeffrey Epstein have a scheme to recruit 
underage girls for underage massages?'" 
MS. 
And it appears there was an objection 
from the lawyer. 
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Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
GM_GLSDNY_00000294 
EFTA00008815

03/29/2021 
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BY MS. 
Q. 
"'If you know.'" 
A. 
"'I don't know what you are talking about.'" 
Q. 
"Just to be clear, was the question and 
answer 
is the answer here Maxwell's testimony?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Just to be clear you testified earlier that 
participated in sexualized massages with Epstein and 
Maxwell, is that right?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And 
was a minor when that occurred?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And did you also testify earlier that 
Maxwell -- that 
told you that Maxwell 
asked her to give Epstein massages when she was a minor?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"If you could turn to the next slide please. Is 
this another excerpt from that same deposition?" 
A. 
"Yes, it is." 
Q. 
"All right. I'll read the question and you can 
read the answer." 
"'Was all the people, under the age of 18 that 
you've interacted at with, at any of Jeffrey Epstein's 
properties?'" 
A. 
"'I'm not aware of anybody that I interacted with, 
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
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Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
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other than, obviously, 
who was 17 at this point.'" 
Q. 
"Just to be clear, you testified earlier about two 
girls under the age of 18 who interacted with Maxwell at 
Epstein's properties, is that correct?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And those individuals were 
and 
who told you that, correct?" 
A. 
"Yes, that's correct." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Is this the cover 
page of the transcript from the deposition that took place 
on July 22, 2016?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And again, was this Maxwell giving testimony as 
part of the testimony under oath here in Manhattan?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"If you could please turn to the next slide. Is 
that an excerpt -- are these two excerpts from that 
deposition?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Again, I'll read the questions, if you could 
please read the answers." 
"'Were you aware of the presence of sex toys or 
devices used in sexual activities in Mr. Epstein's 
Palm Beach house?'" 
MS. 
There is an objection from the 
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Court Reporting Transcription 
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Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
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lawyer. 
WITNESS. 
"'No, no. Not that I recall.'" 
BY MS. 
Q. 
"'Do you know whether Mr. Epstein possessed sex 
toys or devices used in sexual activities?'" 
MS. 
There's an objection from the lawyer. 
WITNESS. 
"'No." 
BY MS. 
Q. 
"Just to be clear you testified earlier that 
told you he found sex toys and a massager in 
Palm Beach and also that he had seen Maxwell had a basket of 
sex toys in her closet there, is that correct?" 
A. 
"Yes, that's correct." 
Q. 
"And is it correct you testified earlier that 
Epstein used a vibrator on 
, is that correct?" 
A. 
"Yes, that's correct." 
Q. 
"And did you also testify earlier that 
told you he did that as well?" 
A. 
"Yes, that's correct." 
Q. 
"And did you also testify earlier that sex toys 
were found by the police in the Palm Beach house in 2005, is 
that right?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And did you also testify earlier that the FBI 
found sex toys in Epstein's New York City townhouse in 
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2019?" 
A. 
"Yes, that's correct." 
Q. 
"If you could please turn to the next slide. This 
is on Page 27. It says, are these also excerpts from that 
same deposition?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Again, I'll read the questions if you could 
please read the answers." 
4. 
"'Other than yourself, and the blonde and brunette 
that you have identified as having been involved in 
three-way sexual activities, with whom did Mr. Epstein have 
sexual activities?'" 
MS. 
There's an objection from the lawyer. 
WITNESS. 
"'I wasn't aware that he was having 
sexual activities with anyone when I was with him, other 
than myself.'" 
BY MS. 
Q. 
"'I want to be sure that I'm clear. Is it your 
testimony that in the 1990s and 2000s you were not aware 
that Mr. Epstein was having sexual activities with anyone 
other than yourself and the blonde and brunette on those few 
occasions when they were involved with you?'" 
A. 
"'That is my testimony. That is correct.'" 
Q. 
"Have you reviewed the deposition transcript?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
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GNLGUDNYJNI00O298 
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Q. 
"In full? Now the excerpt we just read has the 
reference to a blonde and a brunette. Are those individuals 
completely different from the individuals we've been talking 
about today?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
4• 
"Just to be clear, is it correct that you 
testified earlier that 
and 
told you that 
Epstein sexually abused them repeatedly, is that correct?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"And did you also testify earlier that Maxwell was 
occasionally present when Epstein was abusing 
, based 
on what she told you?" 
A. 
"Yes, that's correct." 
Q. 
"Turning to the next slide. Is this also an 
excerpt from the same deposition?" 
A. 
"I'm sorry?" 
Q. 
"I'm so sorry. Turning to the next slide, on 
Page 28. Is this also an excerpt from the same deposition?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
Q. 
"Thank you. Okay. Again, if we could read that 
together. I'll take the question and you can take the 
answer." 
Q. 
"'Let's just tie that down. Is it your testimony 
that you've never given anybody a massage?'" 
A. 
"'I've not given anyone a massage.'" 
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Q. 
"'You never gave Mr. Epstein a massage? Is that 
your testimony?'" 
A. 
"'That is my testimony.'" 
Q. 
"'You never gave 
a massage? Is that 
your testimony?'" 
A. 
"'I never gave 
a massage.'" 
Q. 
"Just to be clear, as you testified earlier, is it 
correct that 
told you that Maxwell gave her a 
massage when they were in New Mexico?" 
A. 
"Yes." 
MS. 
We're going to stop the read back 
there. Ladies and gentlemen, let's take a five minute break 
and we'll come back to finish the presentation in about five 
minutes. With the Foreperson's permission, I will ask that 
the witness please be excused. 
FOREPERSON. 
Yes, he may. 
MS. 
Thank you. 
(Witness Temporarily Excused) 
(Time noted: 11:21 a.m.) 
(Recess taken) 
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(Colloquy Precedes) 
(Witness Resumes) 
(Time Noted: 11:34 a.m.) 
BY MS. 
Q. 
Welcome back, Detective. 
A. 
Thank you. 
Q. 
I have placed in front of you what has been marked 
as Grand Jury Exhibit 5. Do you recognize that? 
A. 
I do. 
Q. 
Is this a PowerPoint presentation concerning some 
of the facts and evidence that you have gathered in your 
investigation? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did you participate in preparing this Exhibit in 
connection with your testimony today? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Will it assist you in testifying today? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Then we're going to have it up on the screen and 
we'll use it as you testify. During the course of this 
investigation have you participated in multiple interviews 
with an individual named 
? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did those interviews take place in the year 2020 
and the year 2021? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Were there approximately five of those interviews 
in total? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
For today's purposes I'm going to refer to her as 
Have you also reviewed reports from other law 
enforcement interviews for 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And is your testimony today based on both the 
review of those reports and your personal participation in 
interviews with 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Are these photographs 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
tell you approximately how old she was 
in one of these photographs? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Which photograph did she identify? 
A. 
The one on the right. 
Q. 
Where is the one on the right from, according to 
A. 
Oh, I'm sorry. That was from her MySpace page. 
Q. 
And about how old did 
photograph from her MySpace page? 
recall being in this 
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A. 
Sixteen years old. 
Q. 
What is 
date of birth? 
A. 
Q. 
Where was 
living when she was about 14 
/ears old? 
A. 
West Palm Beach, Florida. 
Q. 
What was 
home life like when she was 14 
years old? 
A. 
It was troubled. She grew up -- she had been 
molested multiple times as a child. Her mother was addicted 
to drugs and alcohol. Her parents were separated, she often 
fought with her brother and her mother. 
Q. 
When 
boyfriend? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
when 
A. 
Q• 
was 14 years old, did she have a 
What was his name? 
How old was 
was 14 years old? 
when they were dating 
A. 
Approximately 17. 
Q. 
So was 
about three years older than 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did there come a time when 
learned of and 
met Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
Court Reporting Transcription 
D.C. Area 301-261-1902 
Balt. 6 Annap. 410-974-0947 
GM_GJ_SDNY_00000303 
EFTA00008824

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03/29/2021 
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Q. 
According to 
how did that happen? 
A. 
Her boyfriend 
was friends with someone named 
(ph) who was dating 
The four of them would often hang out together. 
On one particular occasion 
was asked by them and 
if she would like to make some money by massaging 
an older man. 
Q. 
How did 
respond? 
A. 
She agreed to do it. 
Q. 
About what year does 
remember this 
conversation taking place? 
A. 
2001. 
Q. 
So how old was 
at that time? 
A. 
Fourteen. 
Q. 
During your investigation have you learned of 
date of birth? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q• 
How old was 
conversation with 
guy? 
at the time of the 
in 2001, about massaging an old 
A. 
Seventeen. 
Q. 
After that conversation with 
meet Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
did 
remember happening the first time 
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Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
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she met Epstein? 
A. 
She was brought there by 
She recalls 
going in through the side door and being introduced to 
Maxwell as they entered. 
Q. 
Based on her interactions with Maxwell, as she and 
entered, what was 
understanding of 
whether 
and Maxwell had met before? 
A. 
She understood that they had met before. 
Q. 
And did Maxwell, in substance, tell 
show 
up the 
to 
what to do? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What happened next? 
A. 
They went upstairs to the massage room. They set 
massage room, waited for Epstein to enter. At that 
point they participated in giving him a massage. 
Q. 
How did 
describe the massage room in the 
Florida house? 
A. 
She described it as having a few doors inside of 
it, some of them entering a closet. She described there 
being a -- it's like a bathroom, basically, that had a sink 
inside of it. And inside of the closet had a massage table 
which they had to take out in order to set it up. 
Q. 
What, if any, photographs did 
recall 
seeing in and around the massage room? 
A. 
She recalls nude photographs of Maxwell. 
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Q. 
And of other females? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
After 
and 
had set up the massage 
table, what happened next? 
A. 
Jeffrey Epstein came into the room; they massaged 
him. At some point during the massage he turned over and 
got on top. They had sex, and 
couch and tried not to watch. 
Q. 
According to 
did 
Jeffrey Epstein 
massage? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
A. 
and they 
Q. 
So to clarify, did 
receive $300? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
sat on the 
and 
engage in sexual intercourse during that 
At the end of the massage what happened? 
Jeffrey left, they got dressed, and each got paid, 
walked downstairs. They got paid $300 each. 
and 
each 
And how did they receive that money; in what 
denomination? 
A. 
Crisp one hundred dollar bills. 
Q. 
After that first visit did 
go to Epstein's 
Palm Beach residence on multiple occasions to provide 
sexualized massages to Jeffrey Epstein between 2001 and 
2004? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Approximately how many times does 
she massaged Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
About one hundred times. 
estimate 
Q. 
Do 
memories of the events at Epstein's 
residence run together after that first visit with 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
At some point after her first or second visit to 
Epstein's residence, did 
give her phone number to 
someone at Epstein's house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
After that did 
go to Epstein's house by 
herself without 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
After 
accompanying her? 
provided her phone number, how did 
she schedule times to massage Epstein at his house? 
A. 
She would either call herself or she would receive 
a phone call. 
Q. 
Did 
explain why she would call herself to 
ask to schedule a time to massage Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. At the time she wanted to make more money so 
she could buy drugs. 
Q. 
During her time seeing Epstein did 
become 
addicted to certain drugs? 
A. 
Yes. 
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03/29/2021 
og 
Q. 
What drugs was she primarily using? 
A. 
Cocaine and marijuana. 
Q. 
When someone would call 
to schedule her 
for massages with Epstein, who does 
remember making 
those calls? 
A. 
Maxwell or 
Q. 
And were there particular time periods, over the 
course of the years when 
was interacting with 
Epstein, that one or the other of those two individuals 
would call? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
say about that? 
A. 
She recalled that for the first several months of 
going to Epstein she would get calls primarily from Maxwell. 
After that, she would receive calls primarily from 
but at the same time, occasionally receiving calls from 
Maxwell. 
Q. 
And did she also remember receiving calls from 
other Epstein employees whose names 
did not know? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
refer to Maxwell as Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes. 
4• 
And then you mentioned another person; what was 
the other person's name? 
A. 
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Court Reporting Transcription 
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Q. 
And did she primarily refer to 
-- did 
primarily refer to 
as 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Who was 
, according to 
A. 
She was another employee of Epstein's. She was an 
assistant who made phone calls, arranged massage 
appointments, and took photographs. 
Q. 
When Maxwell would call 
to schedule 
massage appointments with Epstein, did Maxwell ever tell 
where Maxwell was calling from? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
remember about that? 
A. 
She recalls her saying that they were in New York, 
and that they would be travelling to Florida at a certain 
time period and asking if she would be available for that 
time when they return. 
Q. 
And when you 
was 
referring 
A. 
Epstein 
Q. 
So did 
say "they" would be in New York, who 
to? 
and Maxwell. 
understand from these conversations 
that Maxwell and Epstein, at the time of those phone calls, 
were in New York? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What phone numbers would Epstein's employees call 
to schedule appointments for 
to massage Epstein? 
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A. 
They would call multiple phone numbers, including 
cell phone, her mother's phone, her landline, or 
her home line, and her boyfriend 
's phone. 
Q. 
How did 
get to Epstein's residence for 
each massage appointment? 
A. 
She would either be driven by her boyfriend; she 
would drive herself on occasion even though she did not have 
a license; she had been driven there by 
Epstein or 
picked up. 
Q. 
Did 
Epstein's house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
and also 
Maxwell would send him 
send her a cab 
to be 
boyfriend 
ever meet anyone at 
remember about that? 
A. 
She recalls that he met Epstein. 
Q. 
What did she say about that? 
A. 
He met in the driveway. There was a car that 
Epstein was driving at the time and that he was showing to 
And she recalls that 
really liked the car, and 
she had to hear about him talking about the car for several 
days to weeks after that. 
Q. 
According to 
did 
ever meet any of 
Epstein's employees? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
When 
arrived at Epstein's house for each 
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appointment, what happened when she first arrived? 
A. 
She would arrive through the side door and 
generally be greeted by someone. 
Q. 
Would that be in the kitchen? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does she recall, at times, Maxwell being the 
person who would greet her in the kitchen? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
After being greeted in the kitchen, what would 
do next? 
A. 
She would go upstairs and arrange the massage room 
and the massage table. 
Q. 
Once 
was in the massage room, what 
happened during each appointment? 
A. 
Epstein would generally come out, he would get on 
the table. She would begin her massage. During the massage 
he would flip over and she would generally play with 
nipples. He would masturbate, he would touch her breasts 
and buttocks, and she said that every instance ended with 
Epstein ejaculating. 
Q. 
What would 
be wearing during these 
appointments? 
A. 
At first she just started wearing her underwear 
but was told that she would make more money to be completely 
nude, so she started getting totally nude. 
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was she -- did it become 
during the massages? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
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Q. 
And so after her first few visits to Epstein's, 
practice to be fully nude 
On a few occasions during these massages did 
Epstein touch 
vagina? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
On one occasion does 
touching her vagina with a vibrator? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And you mentioned that 
recall Epstein 
recalled each 
massage ended with Epstein ejaculating; so is it 
recollection that every single massage she performed for 
Epstein involved a sex act? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
After each massage, what happened? 
A. 
Epstein would get up, 
would get dressed; 
she would get paid. The money would generally be on the 
table or on the sink, or she would go downstairs and be paid 
by Maxwell. 
Q. 
How much did 
recall being paid for each 
massage? 
A. 
Three hundred dollars. 
Q. 
In what denomination? 
A. 
One hundred dollar bills. 
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GALGLSDNY2M000312 
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Q. 
You mentioned that 
would sometimes be 
greeted by Maxwell when she arrived at Epstein's house. 
Earlier on in her visits to Epstein's, would Maxwell engage 
in conversation? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And then later on, after 
started primarily 
being the person to schedule these appointments, would 
Maxwell still be present sometimes? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
But during those later periods would Maxwell 
primarily just say hello and not really have extended 
conversations with 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During the earlier period when 
was going 
over to Epstein's Palm Beach house, what types of 
conversations does she recall having with Maxwell? 
A. 
She talked with Maxwell about her home life. She 
talked with Maxwell about her abuse that occurred when she 
was younger. She recalled Maxwell asking about her sexual 
experiences that she's had. She recalled Maxwell asking her 
if she used a vibrator or a toy ever on herself. 
Q. 
Did she also recall conversations about travel? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
I'd like to go through each of those topics that 
recalled discussing. First, what did 
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Maxwell about 
home life in response to Maxwell's 
questions? 
A. 
She told her that she -- her mother was addicted 
to drugs and that she had been molested several times as a 
child. 
Q. 
Did she also tell Maxwell that the parents were 
separated? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
You also mentioned sexual topics coming up. What 
does 
recall about the time or times when sexual 
topics came up with Maxwell? 
A. 
Maxwell has asked her if she was sexually active. 
had told her that she's currently sexually active 
with her boyfriend. Maxwell asked her if she'd ever used a 
toy to pleasure herself, and she had said no. 
Q. 
Did 
recall that, the same day that Maxwell 
asked about whether she ever used a toy, was the day that 
Epstein placed a vibrator on 
genitals during the 
massage? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
recall about conversations with 
Maxwell about travel? 
A. 
She recalls that on multiple occasions Maxwell 
asked her if she wanted to travel, specifically, overseas. 
She had told her that she was 14 years old and that her 
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mother wouldn't let her. Maxwell offered to get her a 
passport so she would be able to travel. 
Q. 
When you said "she had told her that she was 
14 years old," did you mean that 
told Maxwell that 
was 14 years old? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does 
recall that these conversations took 
place when she was about 14 years old? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does 
recall Maxwell saying specifically 
where Maxwell wanted 
to travel with Epstein? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Did Epstein ever invite 
to travel with 
him? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
remember about that? 
A. 
They were similar conversations where she had 
told -- he had asked her if she would like to travel and 
said that 
had also travelled with him. She 
had told him that she was 14 and, likely, her mother 
wouldn't let her travel. He had also offered to get her 
passport. 
Q. 
Did 
ever actually travel with Maxwell or 
Epstein? 
A. 
No. 
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Q. 
After 
told Maxwell and Epstein that she 
was 14 years old, did Maxwell still call her to schedule 
massage appointments for Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
still see Maxwell at the Palm Beach 
residence after telling Maxwell that she was 14 years old? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did Maxwell ever see 
naked? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
In particular does 
recall that there were 
between one and three times when Maxwell saw her naked? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
How did that happen, according to 
A. 
It happened in the massage room. 
Q. 
And was there one time, in particular, when 
recalls Maxwell touching her while 
was 
naked? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
remember about that? 
A. 
She recalls being in the massage room undressing; 
Maxwell complimented her body and then asked if her breasts 
were real, at which point, she touched her breasts. 
Q. 
And when you say "she touched her breasts," do you 
mean Maxwell touched 
A. 
Yes. 
breasts? 
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Q. 
And on those occasions, just to be clear, 
according to 
why was she getting undressed in the 
massage room when Maxwell was present? 
A. 
For getting prepared for the massage with 
Jeffrey Epstein. 
Q. 
Other than during her first visit or two with 
did 
ever participate in massages with 
Epstein during which another female was in the room? 
A. 
Yes. 
4• 
In particular does she recall two occasions when 
Epstein brought another girl into the room? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Would you please describe for the grand jury what 
recalled about one such occasion? 
A. 
She recalled that the girl looked like a model. 
She recalls at one point during the massage Jeffrey Epstein 
attempted to have sex with her; he slightly penetrated her 
at least once or twice, that she can recall; she told him 
no, at which point he began to have sex with the other 
female and at the same time she was performing oral on 
Q. 
Now just to clarify some of the pronouns there. 
You said that Epstein attempted to penetrate, or have sexual 
intercourse, with her; do you mean that 
recalls that 
Epstein attempted to penetrate 
vagina with his 
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penis? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does 
recall Epstein attempting to do that 
and actually inserting his penis into her vagina on one or 
two occasions? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And in response, did 
say no? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And in response to that did Epstein then engage in 
sexual intercourse with the other girl? 
A. 
Yes. 
4• 
And at the same time was the other girl performing 
oral sex on 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was there another instance where Epstein brought a 
different girl into the room? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
remember happening during that 
other instance? 
A. 
Similar instance where Epstein would have sex with 
the other female at the same time while she was performing 
oral on 
Q. 
So Epstein would have intercourse with the other 
girl and the other girl would perform oral sex on 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Did 
ever bring other girls to massage 
Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Why did she do that? 
A. 
She was told she could earn more money. 
Q. 
Who told her, or asked her, to bring other girls? 
A. 
Both Jeffrey and Maxwell. 
Q. 
What, in particular, did they ask her to do? 
A. 
They asked if she could bring younger girls. 
Q. 
Did 
in fact, bring multiple girls over to 
Epstein's house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Can she remember the name of every girl that she 
brought over? 
A. 
No. 
4• 
Are there some examples of names that she 
remembers of girls that 
brought over? 
A. 
Yes. 
4• 
What are some examples? 
A. 
(ph) and 
Q. 
According to 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
older than 
And according to 
• 
was 
younger than 
was 
about a year 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
When 
brought these girls would Epstein 
engage in sex acts, in the presence of both 
and the 
girls she had brought, during the massage? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
After each massage would both 
and the girl 
get paid? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
How much did 
remember them getting paid? 
A. 
Three hundred dollars. 
Q. 
So did each, 
and the girl, get $300? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
receive any gifts from Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What's an example of some gifts that she remembers 
receiving from Epstein? 
A. 
Flowers, a book called "Massage for Dummies," and 
Victoria's Secret underwear. 
Q. 
Does she recall receiving multiple packages of 
Victoria's Secret lingerie? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Before she first received Victoria's Secret 
lingerie, did Maxwell ask her for her address and her bra 
size? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
How does 
remember receiving packages 
Victoria's Secret underwear? 
A. 
She recalls receiving them at her house in West 
Palm Beach. 
Q. 
And how would they get to her house? 
A. 
Either FedEx or UPS. 
Q. 
What, if anything, does 
remember about the 
return address on those packages? 
A. 
She recalls that they stated they were from New 
York. 
Q. 
Does she remember whose name was on the return 
address? 
A. 
She recalls Jeffrey's and Maxwell's name. 
Q. 
What did 
do with the money she made 
massaging Epstein? 
A. 
She used it to purchase drugs. 
Q. 
Did she and her boyfriend then use those drugs? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
continue going to school after she met 
Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
About how old was she when she dropped out? 
A. 
About 14. 
Q. 
Was she in middle school when she dropped out? 
A. 
Yes. 
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100 
Q. 
So did 
ever attend high school? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
In or about 2003 did 
become pregnant with 
her boyfriend 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
continue to massage Epstein after she 
became pregnant, until she began showing her pregnancy? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
give birth to her son in 2004, when 
was about 17 years old? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
After the birth of her son did 
massage Epstein on a small number of occasions? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
tell you about that? 
A. 
She was doing it to -- excuse me -- support her 
baby. 
Q. 
Was that because she needed the money? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you reviewed the proposed superseding 
indictment marked Grand Jury Exhibit 6? 
A. 
It's not in front of me right now, but I have 
reviewed it. 
Q. 
Have you reviewed the proposed superseding 
indictment or would you like me to provide you with a copy? 
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A. 
Yes, I reviewed it. 
Q. 
Is 
the individual referred to as 
Minor Victim 4 in the proposed superseding indictment? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Before you began investigating Epstein and his 
associates was there a prior investigation by a different 
FBI office in Florida into Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During that investigation was 
interviewer 
in 2007? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you reviewed a report from that interview? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During that interview did 
describe 
providing numerous paid sexualized massages to Epstein at 
his Palm Beach residence when she was underage? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
mention Maxwell at all during that 
interview? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
During your more recent interviews with her in 
2021 did 
explain why she did not mention Maxwell 
during her 2007 interview? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did she say about that? 
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A. 
She was not asked. 
Q. 
She was not asked about Maxwell? 
A. 
Correct. 
Q. 
Did she think that Maxwell was important to the 
interview in 2007? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Did 
sue Jeffrey Epstein in approximately 
2008? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
2009? 
Was she deposed, as part of that law suit, in 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you reviewed a transcript of that deposition? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During that deposition in 2009 did 
state 
that Maxwell was one of the people who would call her to 
schedule massage appointments with Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was 
asked any other questions about 
Maxwell, or any follow-up questions about Maxwell, during 
that 2009 deposition? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
After that deposition did the law suit settle? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During her more recent interviews did 
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admit that she lied during her 2009 deposition? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And in particular, in her 2021 interviews did 
tell you that after she stopped seeing Epstein she 
began working for an escort service? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
During her 2021 interviews did 
admit that, 
as part of that escort service, she engaged in paid sex acts 
with men? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Now, during her 2009 deposition was 
asked 
about her time working for an escort service? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she lie and claim that she had engaged in no 
sex acts and only non-sexual dates as part of that escort 
service? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she explain why she lied during her 
deposition? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did she say about that? 
A. 
She was embarrassed. 
Q. 
Was she ashamed to admit that she had worked as a 
prostitute, during her deposition? 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Has 
struggled with drug addiction in the 
years since her time with Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did she, in particular, become addicted to cocaine 
and crack cocaine? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was she also in a car crash after which she was 
prescribed opioids? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And did she become addicted to opioids? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Between the ages of 18 and 26 was 
arrested 
and convicted, on multiple times including misdemeanors and 
felonies, for crimes arising out of her drug use, such as 
drug possession and traffic violations? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was her last felony an incident involving stolen 
property when she pawned an Xbox that belonged to one of 
's friends? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
As a result of that conviction did 
spend 
several weeks in jail? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And was that the longest jail sentence she had 
ever served? 
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Yes. 
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Q. 
After 
was released from that jail sentence 
did she go into drug treatment and obtain mental health 
treatment? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was that several years ago? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What does 
do now? 
A. 
She's a stay-at-home mother. 
Q. 
Is she married? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
To someone other than 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does she have three young children with her 
current husband? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does he work while she takes care of the kids? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Has 
received treatment for depression, 
anxiety, PTSD, and schizophrenia, among other mental health 
issues? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
As for her schizophrenia, does that manifest in 
hearing voices telling her that someone's going to 
take her children away and hurt her children? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does 
believe that that comes from a fear 
that what happened to her as a child could happen to her 
children? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is 
able to tell the difference between 
those voices and reality? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does she take medication to help her not hear 
those voices? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Does 
currently take multiple medications 
to help her manage her drug addiction and her mental health 
issues? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Do those include Methadone, Xanax, and medical 
marijuana? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is 
currently, or has she ever, sued 
Maxwell? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Does she have any plans to do so? 
A. 
No. 
Q. 
Have you identified evidence that corroborates 
account of her time interacting with Epstein and 
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Maxwell? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did you interview 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What is the current nature of 
ex-boyfriend, 
and 
relationship? 
A. 
They have a child in common, and they talk very 
minimally just because they have a child in common. 
Q. 
So do they only speak when necessary to discuss 
their teenage son? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
According to 
were he and 
dating when 
about 17 years old? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
and 
was about 14 years old and Shawn was 
remember that he, 
and 
would hang out around 
that time? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What di(
 recall about how 
came to 
meet Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
He recalls that the four of them were hanging out, 
and they had mentioned --
to them that 
and 
had mentioned 
could go to massage an old man and she 
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would be paid money in return for that. 
Q. 
After that what does 
remember happening? 
A. 
He recalls that 
went to Epstein's house, 
with 
to do the massage. 
Q. 
Did 
recall bringing 
to Epstein's 
Palm Beach residence on multiple occasions? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
remember receiving phone calls to 
schedule appointments for 
to massage Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What, if anything, did 
remember about 
meeting Jeffrey Epstein? 
A. 
He recalls meeting him at his house 
Epstein's 
house; he recalls that Epstein was there with his car, and 
he was showing off his car; he recalls that Epstein was 
flashy. 
Q. 
What, if anything, did 
remember 
saying about Maxwell? 
A. 
He recalls that 
said Maxwell was rude and 
nasty and that she was supposed to be teaching her how to do 
massages. 
Q. 
What did 
remember doing with the money that 
received from Epstein? 
A. 
They purchased drugs; 
and 
Q. 
and 
would purchase drugs? 
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A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
understand was happening when 
was at Epstein's Palm Beach residence? 
A. 
He understood that she was going in there to give 
massages to Epstein but felt that there may have also been 
something else going on. 
Q. 
What did 
remember about 
bringing 
other girls to Epstein's residence? 
A. 
He recalls that she had brought other girls. 
Q. 
Did he remember that both 
and the other 
girls would get paid for going to Epstein's house? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. During the prior 
investigation into Epstein did the other FBI office obtain 
certain Federal Express records regarding Epstein? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was there one in particular from October of 2002 
that is up on the slide right now? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Would you please walk the grand jury through what 
we see on this slide? 
A. 
Sure. On the left-hand side it says, picked up 
October 7th of 2002. The sender's address is on the bottom. 
In the middle it says, Jeffrey E. Epstein; his address is 
457 Madison Avenue, New York, New York. It was sent 
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to -- the recipient being --
Q. 
And is 
name spelled 
instead CL 
in the recipient column? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
And the 457 Madison Avenue address, is that in 
Manhattan? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
How old was 
on October 7, 2002? 
A. 
Fifteen. 
Q. 
Have you interviewed a man named 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Is that the same man about whom we read back 
testimony from Special Agent 
earlier today? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
To remind the grand jury, did 
work for 
Epstein in the 1990s and early 2000s at Epstein's Palm Beach 
residence? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did 
recall meeting 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
What did 
remember about how he first met 
A. 
He recalls driving Maxwell to a massage 
appointment at Mar-a-Lago. He was told to wait in the car 
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
Court Reporting Transcription 
D.C. Area 301-261-1902 
Balt. & Annap. 410-974-0947 
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while she got her massage. When she was done she got in the 
car and they started leaving the property. At some point 
during that drive, while still on the property, she was --
asked him to stop. She got out of the car and approached a 
female who was wearing a uniform at the time. Maxwell spoke 
to that female for about 20 minutes, and Mr. 
could 
not hear the conversation. Maxwell then got back in the car 
and drove back to Epstein's house. Shortly thereafter, 
later that day, that same girl arrived at the house. She 
soon became a regular at the house, and 
learned --
later learned -- her name to be 
Q. 
And when 
said that 
became 
a regular at the house, what was 
understanding of 
why 
was coming to Epstein's Palm Beach 
residence? 
A. 
To give Epstein massages. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Have you reviewed 
flight records for Jeffrey Epstein's private jet? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Do those show multiple flights that 
was on when she was under the age of 18? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Was Maxwell present for some of those flights with 
A. 
Yes. 
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Q. 
Are two such flights reflected on this slide? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
I'd like to ask you to please walk the grand jury 
through those two flight records. 
A. 
On December 11th and December 14th of 2000, you 
can see all the way at the bottom of the page, on the 
left-hand side it's marked 11 and 14; the first flight goes 
from PBI to Teterboro, which is Palm Beach in Florida and 
Teterboro is in New Jersey. On that flight was Epstein, 
Maxwell, and 
among others. The next 
flight, on the 14th, goes from Teterboro to the 
Virgin Islands. On that flight is Epstein, Maxwell, 
among others. 
Q. 
Based on your understanding of 
date of birth, how old was 
on these two flights? 
A. 
Seventeen. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Does this slide show 
three additional flights that 
took with 
Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell when she was 17 years 
old? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Would you please walk the grand jury through these 
three flights? 
A. 
Sure. The first flight is January 26, 2001. On 
that flight is Jeffrey Epstein, Maxwell, and 
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among others. That was from Teterboro to 
Palm Beach. 
Down a little bit further there's another date 
that appears to be January 28th of 2001, although the 8 
seems like it's a little faded, but does appear to be late 
January 2001. On that flight is Jeffrey Epstein, 
Ghislaine Maxwell, and 
among others. 
And the last flight is the 30th of January, also 
2001; this flight's had Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, 
and 
on that flight. 
Q. 
Based on your review of flight records for 
Jeffrey Epstein's private jet have you found multiple 
additional flights in 2001 that 
took with 
Epstein and Maxwell when she was still 17 years old? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you reviewed certain phone records from the 
year 2004? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Did those phone records show that on at least two 
occasions in April and May of 2004 an employee of Epstein'. 
called 
phone number? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. During the prior 
investigation of Epstein was there a search executed at 
Epstein's Palm Beach residence in 2005 by the Palm Beach 
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D.C. Area 301-261-1902 
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Police Department? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q• 
During that search did the police recover message 
pads from the residence? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Would you please explain to the grand jury what 
message pads are? 
A. 
Sure. So message pads, in this particular 
instance, were pads that Epstein kept next to each of his 
phones in his residence. If someone was to call, whoever 
would answer that phone would jot down a note as to who the 
person was that was calling, who they were asking for, the 
time and date, and their phone numbers, and any specific 
message they wanted to leave. 
Q. 
Have you reviewed the message pads that were 
recovered from Jeffrey Epstein's Palm Beach residence in 
2005? 
with 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Do those message pads include several messages 
name and/or phone number on them? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Do those message-pad excerpts date between the 
years 2003 and 2005? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Up on this slide right now, are those two examples 
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of message-pad excerpts that reference 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Would you please walk the grand jury through these 
message pad excerpts? 
A. 
Sure. The first one says the message is for 
Mr. Epstein. The date is 3/1/2003. 
3/11? 
Q. 
I'm sorry, I think you said 3/1, did you mean 
A. 
I'm sorry. It's a little faded. 3/11/2003. The 
message is from 
and the phone number -- also a 
little faded here -- but says, 
. The second message 
says it's for JE, Jeffrey Epstein; the date is March 16, 
2003; the message is from 
; same number as the 
previous message is 
. The message on the bottom 
says she wants to work. 
Q. 
And just to remind the grand jury, did 
tell you that there were times when she would call to ask to 
massage Epstein so that she could get more money for drugs? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Turning to the next slide. Are these additional 
message pad excerpts seized from Jeffrey Epstein's 
Palm Beach residence in 2005? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
these? 
Would you please walk the grand jury through 
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A. 
Sure. The first one on the left says the message 
is for JE, Jeffrey Epstein. It's from 
There's -- the date is missing on this one, but it says the 
time is 12:30. The phone number is 
. The one 
on the right says the message is also, again, JE for 
Jeffrey Epstein. There's no date; the time is 3:15 
It's from 
p.m. 
, phone number 
The 
message states, ■ 
wants to work. 
Q. 
During the search in 2005 of Epstein's Palm Beach 
residence were additional messages recovered that are nor 
included on these slides? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Additionally, were multiple massage tables seize° 
from the residence in 2005? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q• 
Was at least one of those tables manufactured 
outside of the state of Florida? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Have you reviewed photographs and a video 
recording from that 2005 search of the Palm Beach residence? 
A. 
Yes. 
Q. 
Would you please describe for the grand jury, 
based on those photographs and that video, what the massage 
room in the Palm Beach residence looked like? 
A. 
Sure. It was basically a master bathroom. There 
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was glass doors which appear to go back into a shower. 
There's a sink in the room; there is a couch in the room; 
there's several door in the room, one of which leads into a 
closet. Inside of the closet on the walls, also on the 
walls of the massage room, there were multiple photographs, 
some of them being of nude women. 
Q. 
Was there also a massage table in that closet? 
A. 
Yes. Photographed was a massage table inside of 
the closet. 
Q. 
Have you told the grand jury everything you know 
about this case, or have you merely answered the questions 
that I've asked you? 
A. 
I've merely answered the questions. 
Q. 
When you testified about conversations you had 
with others, or documents you reviewed, did you testify to 
the exact words or just the substance? 
A. 
Just the substance. 
Q. 
And are you willing to return to the grand jury if 
the grand jurors have additional questions for you? 
A. 
Of course. 
MS. 
Then with the Foreperson's permission 
I'll ask that the witness please be excused. 
FOREPERSON. 
Yes, he may. 
MS. 
Thank you. 
(Witness Excused) 
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
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D.C. Area 301-261-1902 
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(Time Noted: 12:15 p.m.) 
(Colloquy Follows) 
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
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D.C. Area 301-261-1902 
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CERTIFICATE 
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I hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and 
accurate transcription, to the best of my skill and ability, 
from my electronic notes of this proceeding. 
April 5, 2021 
Date 
Reporter 
Free State Reporting, Inc . 
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. 
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